Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Tell me how · 21-11-2023 4:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396589#Comment_121396589

I categorically, unequivocally, absolutely compeletely disagree.

Israel is absolutely responsible for the bombs that it drops.

This is the veil of Zionism I was referring to. Israel does not get to absolve itself of its own actions when it is clearly and repeatedly targeting civilian locations just because some of its citizens were killed in a horrific attack.

Tell me how · 21-11-2023 4:50pm

Israeli views on Gaza

These people are genocidal.

odyssey06 · 21-11-2023 4:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396666#Comment_121396666

Nine times out of ten when such a wording is used, it is done deliberately, rather than carelessly. I have seen such phrasings elsewhere on this forum, and in short order it becomes clear why it was worded that way, as a way of weakening what was actually said but pulling the wool over the eyes of casual readers.

"Any" of their wrong doings? Ever? That is very vague. I have not jumped in defending Israel against "any" and "all" of their "wrongdoings". On the subject of civilian casualties in Gaza in the current conflict, there is considerable debate on culpability between Hamas - in basing itself in civilian areas - and Israel, in targeting Hamas in those areas.

Before October 7th, Israel was normalising relations with other powers in the region. The major obstacle to peace and progress is Hamas, who instead of focusing on protecting and improving the lives of Palestinians, have embraced conflict with Israel.

Ulixes · 21-11-2023 4:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396641#Comment_121396641

Are you saying that all people who refer to themselves as Zionists hold such views and condone such actions?

We have nutters and extremists in our Parliament too. Soon we'll be ruled by people who still celebrate and erect plaques to child killers. That doesn't mean all of our Parliament agrees with them it is not reasonable to say we are butchers either.

Israeli Palestinians have been killing Arab Palestinians for decades and vies versa. Iran and Syria have been using Palestinian Arabs as proxies for their war on Israel for decades. Israel has never carried out the sort of mass murder of civilians that Hamas has done, in fact the last time Arab Muslims were killed at that scale was in Lebanon in 1982 and it was Christians that did it.

I do agree that Hamas are not the sole aggressors in this. That title goes to Iran, or Hezbollah, or maybe Qatar. Israel is certainly in the mix too but anyone who thinks this is a conflict between the Palestinian Arabs and Israel is a fool.

odyssey06 · 21-11-2023 4:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396668#Comment_121396668

How do you know he has?

I have repeatedly couched my language with caveats that it is based on what I have read, and that I withdraw my remarks if such comments were made and are still stood over. I have tried to state it conditionally, laying out the criteria under which I made the accusation.

A quick google suggests I am on the right track... we have a full blown Hamas supporter and terrorist apologist here:

Irish "comedian" Tadhg Hickey says that he doesn't condone Hamas but describes their actions as those of legitimate "freedom fighters".

Do you think the Hamas atrocities on October 7th were those of legitimate freedom fighters?

Ulixes · 21-11-2023 4:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396696#Comment_121396696

They are targeting locations where they think Hamas operatives, rockets or infrastructure is located. Hamas are locating those assets in populated areas precisely so as to maximise the death toll of their own people.

scottser · 21-11-2023 5:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396611#Comment_121396611

'im going to keep on shooting you despite the fact you are behind a human shield and it's your fault if i hit the human shield.'

you know, in every analogous real life situation that would be an absurd twist of logic. it's like driving in a straight line and expecting the world to get out of the way.

Ulixes · 21-11-2023 5:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396702#Comment_121396702

I haven't read the article or the context but, as I have said previously, there is no shortage of nutters in Israel and the fundamentalist Jewish settlers are as extreme as Hamas.

Sir_Name · 21-11-2023 5:11pm

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/white-house-says-israel-hamas-hostage-deal-closer-than-before-2023-11-21/

Apparently a cabinet meeting this evening so imagine a vote on this. Helpfully agreed to hostages can be released.

Ulixes · 21-11-2023 5:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396749#Comment_121396749

'I'm going to keep on shooting you, while you continue to shoot at me and hold members of my family hostage, despite the fact you are using a member of your own family as a human shield and it's your fault if I hit the human shield.'

I think that's a more apt analogy.

odyssey06 · 21-11-2023 5:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396687#Comment_121396687

I didn't say there was an obligation to show balance. I said that when his satire is only directed at one set of targets, taken in conjunction with his other public comments on the topic, it is reasonable and legitimate to call him out as a terrorist apologist and Hamas supporter. It is not being done just in the name of comedy, of what gets the best laughs. It is serving political ends. And therefore he cannot hide behind the shield of satire \ comedy as a defence. He can't have his cake and eat it too.

Weepsie · 21-11-2023 5:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396721#Comment_121396721

Normalizing relations by annexing/settling more land and displacing hundreds of people who lived on it for generations than they had done in the 40 previous years combined?

There are very few places in gaza, that are not civilian places. It is one of the most densely populated parts of the world. 2 million people in an area half the size of Louth

odyssey06 · 21-11-2023 5:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396802#Comment_121396802

They were normalising relations with other Arab powers in the region. This is publicly documented, and the current conflict has put that on hold.

The settlements need to be curtailed, that needs to be on the table.

They are launching attacks from high density civilian locations, to what end? Sometimes apparently hitting their own civilians.

It is documented they have launched attacks at Israel from schools, to what end?

Does that show any regard for the lives of Palestinians?

They have bases under hospitals. They hide in refugee camps. They wear no uniform.

Does that show any regard for the lives of Palestinians?

And you're going to try to defend those war crimes by saying Gaza is densely populated? Come off it.

Furze99 · 21-11-2023 5:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396539#Comment_121396539

"There is a world of difference between a Hamas terrorist deliberately going around targeting and executing civilians on October 7th, and deaths of civilians when Israel attempts to strike back against Hamas sites in civilian areas."

And therein lies what you really think - your bias.

Let's be clear - there is no equivalence between these abominable acts. On the one hand, we have a group of religious fundamentalists widely considered as a terrorist organisation committing acts of atrocity.

On the other, you have a state, a heavily armed state, a military apparatus bent of delivering death and destruction on a defenceless civilian population hemmed into a small area. Who knows what their rationale is - maybe if we kill 100 civilians we might get one terrorist.

It's sick and it's depraved and it's indefensible what the state of Israel is engaged in.

Ulixes · 21-11-2023 5:38pm

Imagine you're a farmer and you have a neighbouring farmer with whom you have a land dispute. You hate each other and have been smashing each others stuff for years. You've been killing each other's animals and doing all sorts of nasty stuff. You've done your fair share to make the problem worse over the years but at the moment things are calm. Your other neighbours don't really like you either but and you're about to reach an agreement with those neighbouring farms to normalise things with them.

The fist neighbour really doesn't like that so one day he comes into your house, smashes the place up, kills some of your children and kidnaps a few more.

You get your gun and you chase after him, right back to his own home. You smash in, looking for your children. You set fire to the place to try to flush him out. You don't care if his children are upstairs and might burn. When you find him he grabs one of his own children and used them as a human shield while shooting at you. If you leave there's a high probability you'll never see your kidnapped children again.

Your name is Israel. What do you do?

markodaly · 21-11-2023 5:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396387#Comment_121396387

When did I ever talk about the Deep State and go on about AntiFa?

You ignored my entire argument.

brickster69 · 21-11-2023 5:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396692#Comment_121396692

I don't think anyone responded to your post Sir_Name so i thought it was well worth repeating it, considering all these statements of intent to commit genocide are publicly on the record.

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1726948242531782961

scottser · 21-11-2023 6:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396780#Comment_121396780

You can load as many whatifs and whatabouts as you want on to the analogy but it's still a ridiculous argument. All you're doing is justifying killing the innocent in the name of peace. And before you start pointing elsewhere, look at yourself and think about the utter stupidity of what you're advocating, because it's identical to what Hamas are doing.

brickster69 · 21-11-2023 6:15pm

Incredible really to say these things in public from people in power.

suvigirl · 21-11-2023 6:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396749#Comment_121396749

Using human shields is a war crime

RobbieV · 21-11-2023 6:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395227#Comment_121395227

There will be plenty of time to look back and ask questions when Israel has eradicated hamas, destroyed their infrastructure and has cut all ties with Gaza.

Starfire20 · 21-11-2023 6:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121397014#Comment_121397014

so is using white phosphorus on civilian populations.

so is collective punishment

so is targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure.

all things that israel is guilty of.

and yes....i condemn hamas.....do you condemn israel?

amandstu · 21-11-2023 6:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396780#Comment_121396780

It is close but are the Gazans really Hamas' family or are they rather their hostages too?

SafeSurfer · 21-11-2023 6:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121397014#Comment_121397014

A human shield is supposed to prevent those using them from being attacked in order to prevent civilian deaths. This isn’t happening. Civilians are being bombed regardless.

TheRepentent · 21-11-2023 6:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396999#Comment_121396999

last time I saw that many kunts in a photo was on pornhub

SafeSurfer · 21-11-2023 6:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121397052#Comment_121397052

Bomb first, ask questions later.

Strazdas · 21-11-2023 6:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121397082#Comment_121397082

Indeed, 'human shield' assumes the attackers are careful and responsible and taking major steps to avoid civilian deaths. 12,000 civilian deaths and 20% of all buildings in Gaza city destroyed suggests the Israelis have gone in there like a bunch of maniacs and are not overly bothered about who they hit or what they destroy.