Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Francie Barrett

https://www.thejournal.ie/lord-mayor-israeli-ambassador-meeting-6231031-Nov2023/

I thought Irish neutrality was important to the left? If so, why are they so eager to close down diplomatic channels?

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121408700#Comment_121408700

I'm just assuming/guessing Hamas stockpiled rockets for the 7th and fired as much as they had as quickly as they could.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411214#Comment_121411214

You say yourself they didn’t know who they were shooting at. That is different to deliberately targeting with friendly fire to prevent hostage taking.

You are victim blaming. The deaths on that day were 100% caused by Hamas actions. They are proud of the killings. No need for you to make excuses on their behalf.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411311#Comment_121411311

I'm not saying that you are wrong (I don't have a 100 % reliable figure either) But I remember one Hamaz spokesperson claiming that they had 100'000 Rockets / Missiles etc. (he could have been including Mortars in that figure) so I went with the 50'000 figure. That seems reasonable to me for the kind of war Hamaz expects. If you have seen any Russian / Ukraine multiple rocket launching vids, even 50'000 rockets will not last too long. For instance, a BM-21 122-mm MRL can fire all rockets in 6 seconds or fire each singly and can reload in 5 minutes. It can fire the 40 rockets or any part thereof at a fixed 0.5-second interval. Single rockets can be fired manually at any desired interval. One volley from a BM-21 battalion is 720 rounds. I doubt that Hamas has any BM-21's, none the less, several teams working together can fire quite an amount singly. 3'000 that they fired in the same day, and 7'000 in the same week, is quite some doing without using a multiple rocket Launcher.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411404#Comment_121411404

I've heard the 100,000 figure before, but that was in relation to Hezbollah. Considering about 10,000 missiles fired so far from Gaza this year, that's more than fired in the 10 years preceding it. Hard to believe they have 10x the amount. They have been planning for 2 years, that's a hell of a lot to stockpile.

Just because Hamas have shown they can fire 3000 missiles in 4 hours doesn't mean they have a large stockpiles of 50 or 100k.

I'm sure if they had a supply that large they would have been firing 24k a day for 4 days straight to overwhelm Israel's air defence.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411396#Comment_121411396

Of course they could not distinguish who was in a car, who was in a house and who was running through a field.

The point is when you fire on someone you need to be certain that person is the enemy and even the people doing the firing admitted that they knew they would be hitting their own people in the process. That is why they requested the order to do so and that order was given.

The whole idea of that directive was to prevent hostages being taken regardless of who they shot. Maybe if they never did that loads more hostages would of been captured and many more Hamas would of escaped also.

I agree Hamas's actions that day was the cause of the deaths, but i also accept that years of Israels documented crimes against humanity played a part of those actions also. Don't you ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411569#Comment_121411569

I’ll address your last paragraph, and give some elaboration. The origins of this conflict clearly go back many years, and the actions of Israel cannot be described as mild. The actions of settlers on the West Bank is wrong and cannot be condoned.

I think the fundamental question that divides people on this forum is whether the state of Israel has a right to exist.

If you believe not, then nothing they do can be in any way acceptable. If you do, then it is possible to form the opinion that it is understandable that they are armed to the teeth, and aggressively defensive, given that they are surrounded by neighbours that openly campaign to eliminate them.

The Israeli response to the most recent attack by Hamas has been exceedingly brutal, and I suspect that Hamas use that to their political advantage.

I do think that the Israel / Gaza war is particularly contentious because of the Jewish element to the conflict. It has been pointed out numerous times on this thread that there have been vastly more barbaric conflicts in the Middle East between Arab nations, and these have not stirred the same level of debate on this site.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411228#Comment_121411228

It's military neutrality.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411396#Comment_121411396

Hamas fired the shell from the tank. Sure.

What are you referring to, circadian?

I’m not disputing that friendly fire casualties are likely to have happened. I’m quite sure that day was pandemonium.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411896#Comment_121411896

Not once in over 700 pages has anyone to my knowledge disputed Israel's right to exist.

Why is it when you ask a question like - Do Palestinians have the right to self defense people flee to the hills, refuse to answer and never to be seen again. I mean it is like saying the French resistance never had a right to resist the occupying Nazi's isn't it. It is black & white.

Anyway, looks like another crackdown on the press is incoming.

https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1727860032274940413

odyssey06

@Brickster69 Yes, lots of people have disputed Israel's right to exist. Anybody who chants "From the river to the sea..."

As for the French resistance. The French resistance didn't go door to door deliberately executing entire families of German civilians. They didnt mutilate and kill children, civilians. They didn't kidnap German kids as hostages.

Your historical comparison is false, and is a deliberate attempt to downplay the atrocities Hamas inflicted on civilians. Hamas are a terrorist scum death cult. They are not freedom fighters.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412000#Comment_121412000

Sorry I thought you were referring to the tank that blew up the car in the Gaza strip a week or so ago.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412134#Comment_121412134

Firing rockets at your neighbour isn’t self defence. It is aggression.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411228#Comment_121411228

This was in response to the Dublin Lord Mayor cancelling a meeting with the Israeli ambassador. Why do Irish local politicians get so involved with foreign policy? THey should stick to what they elected to do: street cleaning, provision of parks and other facilities, road maintenance, etc. THey should have more responsibilities, even if only to stop them sbing distracted by Gaxa or whatever. Problem is, they are of such low calibre, you would't put them in charge of toilet cleaning.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412233#Comment_121412233

Oh right. So someone illegally invades and occupies you, throw your kids in prison, go into peoples homes with a gun and say " **** off this is my home now " build a ghetto around 2.5 million people, tell them they have to leave their homes or they will be blown up and then call them animals who should be destroyed.

What do you expect them to do bake them a cake and give them a bunch of roses ?

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412173#Comment_121412173

Do you think Palestinians has the right to self defense under international law ?

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121410068#Comment_121410068

Imagine if the Israelis realised that Hamas were hiding underground and knew that there was no point in killing the civilians on top? Then imagine if they looked after those same people and showed them what life could actually be like without Hamas?

Of course that would entail treating them like human beings, not cutting down their olive groves etc etc. It could work.

brickster69

Spain's leader speaks to Bibi

https://twitter.com/europapress/status/1727692187259764815

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412798#Comment_121412798

Just imagine life were that simple.

It isn’t.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411495#Comment_121411495

From WIKI and Al-jazeera:-

Quote "Palestinian militants have launched tens of thousands of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip since 2001 as part of the continuing Arab Israeli conflict. Since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in August 2005, almost 20,000 rockets have hit southern Israel,." Un-Quote. On the 7th, they fired a total of 3'000 missiles, so that gives an average of 125 missiles per hour. And as we know, a further 7'000 were fired in the same week.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412955#Comment_121412955

I'm not quite sure what that proves?

Certainly doesn't prove they have a stockpile of 50/100k rockets.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412984#Comment_121412984

OK.,No problem I'm offering my opinion, and I will stand by it. You have a different opinion, that's OK. Speaking of proof, can you prove that I'm wrong and you are right?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412717#Comment_121412717

The question is moot when Hamas conducts this so-called defence of Palestinians using war crimes and atrocity. In fact, inflicting war crimes on their supposed 'own people'. And ruling Gaza as a despotic regime. So sure, Palestinians have the right to self defense against the Hamas terrorist scum death cult.

As to any other angle, let's see what experts in international law outline wrt conduct of Palestinian self defence that would be justified.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121413138#Comment_121413138

Honestly, do you actually believe that ?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121413314#Comment_121413314

Every word. Hamas have zero interest in the self defence of Palestianians, they have committed war crimes against their own civilians and Israeli civilians. They seek to commit atrocities against Israeli civilians. They are a terrorist death cult, and ultimately enemies of Palestinians as well as Israelis.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394539#Comment_121394539

Indeed, and unlike the poster @Tell me how you quoted, I would not take South Africa as a moral or other guide for anything. The SA government (and to a lesser extent society) is so insanely corrupt and dysfunctional that they literally cannot even keep traffic lights or street lights on the roads.

Why are South Africans Stealing Traffic Lights? - YouTube

If the ANC is one side of an issue, the default position of any sane person should be to take the other side.

tandcapply

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412609#Comment_121412609

You forgot a minor detail of going to war against a 1day old Israel in 1948, losing and getting kicked out to Gaza strip.

Given autonomy in 2005 and 2 years later electing Hamas Isis and the rest is on the news.

Not just these poor people going about their business but agree that leaders failed all in the middle east and Europe.

Odhinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121413458#Comment_121413458

"Hamas Isis"? ISIS consider Hamas apostate, as they do Palestinians in general.

tandcapply

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412798#Comment_121412798

I can read your hatred towards Israel in here but will address to me best knowledge. Gaza was freed from Jews in the early 2000s and Hamas got elected/took over after killing the Palestinian authority (PLO nominated). A bit like what happened in Afghanistan when the US withdrew last year, Hamas took a bit longer (1+ years).

Any freedom/self determination Israel gave Gaza brought misery in multiples to both Gaza and Israel.

West bank is no way near as bad so food for thought there