Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539916#Comment_121539916

The 900,000 Jews have been largely forgotten about. When we think of refugees from this particular conflict, it's nearly always considered to be synonymous with Arab refugees fleeing Israel, and not the majority which were Jews fleeing the rest of the MENA region, the majority of them in turn going TO Israel.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121538420#Comment_121538420

Presumably they're in tunnels hard to get to

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540013#Comment_121540013

That still doesn't explain why you feel the need to denigrate the ethnic cleansing of 700,000 people like you did.

But of course we really do know why, it's why you also say all 900,000 were refugees, when the exact amount is not so clear and the reality is more complicated.

"In a Knesset hearing, Ran Cohen stated emphatically: "I have this to say: I am not a refugee." He added: "I came at the behest of Zionism, due to the pull that this land exerts, and due to the idea of redemption. Nobody is going to define me as a refugee."

"Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath has rejected the comparison, arguing that the ideological and historical significance of the two population movements are totally different and that any similarity is superficial. Porath says that the immigration of Jews from Arab countries to Israel, expelled or not, was from a Jewish-Zionist perspective the fulfilment of "a national dream" and of Israeli national policy in the form of the One Million Plan. He notes the efforts of Israeli agents working in Arab countries, including those of the Jewish Agency in various Arab countries since the 1930s, to assist a Jewish "aliyah". Porath contrasts this with what he calls the "national calamity" and "unending personal tragedies" suffered by the Palestinians that resulted in "the collapse of the Palestinian community, the fragmentation of a people, and the loss of a country that had in the past been mostly Arabic-speaking and Islamic""

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539823#Comment_121539823

Ethnic cleansing is a meme, that's the moral level of the Netanyahu enablers here

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539802#Comment_121539802

So to support what we think is right thing is the fault of the RCC? There are posters here that will support Israel no matter how many civilians they kill in this operation, until Israel say they are done and this unthinking support is somehow to be admired and followed?

Did you think Netanyahu was a good guy before this operation began? Do you want to give him carte blanche to kill as many civilians as he likes?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540178#Comment_121540178

I'm not so sure about this. With regard to "expelled or not" I mean if you're expelled from a place, you are a refugee from it almost by definition, would that not be so?

As to the concept of some having left their homes due to the "call of the land" to make Aliyah, it must be borne in mind that of the 900,000, only 650,000 went to Israel, ergo 250,000 went somewhere else. At any rate, it must take some really serious events to cause 900,000 people to leave their homes and migrate in a relatively short span of history.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540186#Comment_121540186

And yet, things like BDS predated Netanyahu's time as Israeli PM.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539800#Comment_121539800

There's talk that their relentless violent assault on Gaza and its civilians could go on for another three to six months. In no way could that be seen as a proportionate response to October 7th. They've already 'lost the room' in terms of global opinion.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540589#Comment_121540589

From their perspective they have to see it through. If even one Hamas rocket unit survives the war and fires on Israel then they will spin it as a victory. With this in mind there must be some in the Israeli Cabinet who like the Egyptian plan, as it offers them a way out of this which they can spin as a victory. Hamas have naturally rejected it, but I can see a point coming whereby they will accept it because again the political leadership love the rhetoric about Martyrdom but it's clearly not for them. The plan may involve giving immunity to some of their top leadership, but the question is would Israel stick to such an agreement long term.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540618#Comment_121540618

It may not be a Hamas rocket but I could see rockets returning to being launched at Israel at some point. Unless Israel is willing to kill all men of combat age then I think Hamas will just disappear into the general populace and bide their time. I dont believe IDF will be able to occupy the Gaza strip of 2 million people considering only a few months ago they were no able to secure their own borders.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540618#Comment_121540618

One huge mistake Israel has made is that they have probably emboldened the idea of Palestinian statehood and swung international opinion behind it. Palestine surely hasn't got a future as a subjugated region - subjugated by a government and a people that have nothing but intense hatred for them and who don't regard them as equals. Israel could easily win the battle but heavily lose the war.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540255#Comment_121540255

I think anyone who does the right thing would do so without some guy in a dress pontificating from the Bronze Age Goatherders guide to the Galaxy. And no, Netanyahu was never a nice guy, no politician ever is, nor should he have carte blanche to do anything.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540786#Comment_121540786

So if that is the case when would you ever consider no longer supporting Netanyahu's actions in gaza ? It seems that for some posters here the operation should continue until the objective is complete but they also concede that they are waiting for the Israelis to tell them when the objective is complete .

That sounds like they just allow the Israelis to continue as long as they wish, casualties be damned.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540805#Comment_121540805

When the hostages are returned and the rockets stop falling. I've given this answer to that question repeatedly.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540823#Comment_121540823

So you are not waiting for Hamas to concede defeat and leave Gaza? I don't think some of those others in support the operation have the same view. I don't think the IDF can just turn this operation on and off at short notice Say Hamas stop for a month and release the hostages, I don't expect the idf can easily mobilise their reserves to hammer Gaza again if Hamas commences sending rockets their way again.

This is the problem in supporting an operation led by such a bad actor like Netanyahu. You can't tell what his end goal is, or what will make him stop.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540847#Comment_121540847

Let me turn the question around: under what circumstances should Israel try to co-exist with Hamas, a mortal enemy that wants the Jews dead?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540887#Comment_121540887

I don't want them to co exist. But I just want posters to be clear what they support not come out with empty statements like that civilians die in war. I'm not going to support a position where the amount of civilians to die in Gaza is dependent on the goodwill of Netanyahu and Hamas. And if you support this continued operation that is the position you are taking.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540758#Comment_121540758

Yes,an unintended consequence of this war for the likes of Bibi is that he will no longer be able to maintain the status quo... I think the pressure from the American Goverment will be immense given they have isolated themselves on the world stage over this war .

if Bibi, or whoever comes next, tries to do so, then it's inevitable as you say that another militant group will form eventually, assuming the goal of eliminating Hamas can be even achieved in the first place.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539621#Comment_121539621

Sudden Valley, without reservation I utterly condemn violence in any shape or form by anyone against any innocent Men, Women and Children anywhere. With good reason, I'm a big fan of the Geneva Conventions. The comparison I made between Putin and the Israeli's is very valid, whether you think so or not. Putin has literally leveled entire cities in Ukraine, and not only cities, if he gets his way, he will eliminate ALL of Ukraine, its cities. its culture and its people and he and his government has said that. Netanyahu could very well do that too if he wanted, yet he has not done it, why? Now that's an interesting question to my mind.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540911#Comment_121540911

Not so fast. Either Israel has to co-exist with Hamas constantly attacking them (as they've been doing since 2006) or they have to fight.

There's no middle ground. Either Israel fights or it effectively surrenders. Under what circumstances should they thus stop fighting?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540941#Comment_121540941

Netanyahu hasn't done that because the international condemnation would be too great not because because he has a good heart. Unlike Russia Israel is affected by international isolation. He can achieve his goal and kill the Palestinians slowly. Its a win win for him at the moment. When will he stop? Who knows as only he can declare when victory is achieved unless Hamas admit defeat and surrender. The civilian in Gazans are in hands of Hamas and Netanyahu and his allies, two sets of bigots.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540954#Comment_121540954

They can fight but not bomb from the air killing civilians willy nilly. Do i believe Netanyahu will stop if Hamas don't surrender? Not in my life I can't support military action carried out by a corrupt and racist politician like Netanyahu who would not think twice about exterminating the Gazans.

Rosahane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540954#Comment_121540954

Since it's Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Houtis etc. fighting as proxies of Iran what Israel does or the US or the UN in Gaza is probably irrelevant.

None of these Islamic terrorists are not going to surrender long term!

The Iranian regime are under domestic pressure and allies of Russia and probably China all of whom want to provoke as big a retaliation as possible for their own domestic and geopolitical reasons.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539938#Comment_121539938

Naive? Maybe. But the destruction of the Tunnels, or at least denying their use to Hamas / any other factions, Israel will be in a much better position to monitor and control what's happening in Gaza. Sure, they will be hated (nothing new there) and probably a continuation of low-level bombings and shootings, suicide martyrs etc. (for which the IDF will extract a very heavy price) But make no mistake, the IDF will control Hamaz. You will not see any more well-planned attacks like what happened on the 7th. as for Palestinians being forced to leave Gaza, we will have to wait until the fighting stops, and see then.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540964#Comment_121540964

Well every war requires extensive use of air power, this is no different. Also Netanyahu is utterly irrelevant. Hamas would want the Jews dead even if there was a left wing PM in office. And Hamas international supporters would be right behind them. And the Western Left would still be crapping on Israel, calling it all sorts of names and making genocidal chants like "From the River to the Sea" etc.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541043#Comment_121541043

Netanyahu is very relevant as his government will decide when the operation ends. I do think there are bigots on both sides it's just at this moment only the Israeli bigots are killing civilians on a large scale.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541061#Comment_121541061

No Israeli PM could change the underlying reality that Israel has been dealt a very bad hand, so to speak. If it weren't Netanyahu, even if it were someone on the Israeli Left (Israel has had some in their history) they would still be facing the same dire security situation.

The only question is whether Israel should have to engage in these fights with one hand tied behind their back. Given the circumstances, I don't think so.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541083#Comment_121541083

Israel has killed as many children as they have militants ( and even then can we rely on the idf figures for militants killed, how are they calculated?). Even with these great results you are worried about constraints being placed on the IDF methods.

Netanyahu is important and different to a left wing equivalent as he has been shown to be corrupt and dishonest. But the operation and killing will only end when he agrees to it. When in your opinion should the operation end?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541061#Comment_121541061

And who exactly do you think should decide when the war is finished?

There is an objective to a war, when the objective is achieved, the war is over

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541095#Comment_121541095

We know that PM of Israel is largely irrelevant because they had a centre-left wing PM in Ehud Olmert in the mid-late 2000s and (Spoiler alert: this will come as a huge surprise) they had to fight a war against Hamas in the Gaza strip. Plus ca change. Except the 7/Oct/2023 attacks were worse than anything that lead to the other recent wars.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541113#Comment_121541113

So who will tell you when the objective is achieved? Netanyahu. Is he not a corrupt and dishonest person? If you are waiting for him to tell you this then is done you will be waiting a while I suspect. He will kill as many Palestinians as he can get away with. And you will sit silently by. But you are waiting for the objective to be completed.