Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544591#Comment_121544591

you said: "A huge number of civilians are being killed in Gaza. It's not at all clear to me why that's Israel's rather than Hamas' fault."

That is what I replied to.

You seem to be stuck in the 1940s - that was 80 years ago. A different time, a very different war and different weaponry. We are now in the 21st century with weaponry that is much more accurate.

Whataboutery will not solve this conflict.

Do you think Israel should continue its indiscriminate bombing of a civilian population?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544580#Comment_121544580

What about the West Bank?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544580#Comment_121544580

The Hamas that Israel supported and funded so they would win the election.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544605#Comment_121544605

Are you clapping yourself on the back here? No one disputed Hamas has an extensive tunnel network. What was in dispute was whether they had a command center under the Al Shifa Hospital. I don't think the evidence presented for that was convincing. Ehud Olmert gave an interview where he stated the main operational center for Hamas maybe in Khan Yunis. He also stated the top leadership is likely hiding out there in tunnels . It wouldn't surprise me if tunnels running from the North to the very south of the strip are discovered in the months to come. We may also hear about leading figures being cornered in certain tunnels.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544605#Comment_121544605

So what justification does Israel have for the decades of abuse against the Palestinians, particularly in the West Bank?

I agree with you - there is no excuse for such retribution. But that applies to both sides.

You're right about this being in the baby stages. What repercussions do you think will come of this?

I really can't see anything good coming out of this for anyone bar the arms manufacturers.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544425#Comment_121544425

Ah the poster who said that the Gardai strip prisoners on the street is mixed up again and can't read properly. It happened in Israel and is now happening in Gaza. Terrorist attacks from two sets of terrorists. And yes all terrorist attacks are wrong.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544599#Comment_121544599

Here is just one video of the "crammed open air prison camp". Is that what it looks like?

https://twitter.com/khalidi79397/status/1737844161414643826

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544702#Comment_121544702

No. Hamas are a terrorist organisation.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544729#Comment_121544729

Ask the relatives of the dead Gazan children and they'll tell you. The relatives of the dead doctors, nurses, nuns, reporters, ambulance drivers etc will agree too.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543528#Comment_121543528

I wondered how much further Israel has to go to wipe out all of Hamas in Gaza.

I have a vague recollection of a report stating there were about 30,000 Hamas combatants. I saw today that IDF stated that 8,000 had been killed. So presumably bout 22,000 to go?

By combatants, I mean trained and equipped personnel - not those who only politically/ideologically support Hamas.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544610#Comment_121544610

That was a direct response to Hitler bombing of English Citys, and nothing else. Dresden was not an armaments manufacturing Centre or anything like that. Revenge, pure and simple. Bit like Russian's attack on Berlin. The biggest artillery barrage in history began with the cry " Remember Stalingrad".

jmreire

...

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544205#Comment_121544205

I'll take it you mean who will stop the neighbours in their tracks? For those neighbours who see that engaging in any conflict would be futile and even counterproductive, I'd say hard diplomacy and a couple of aircraft carriers in the Med would keep them out of the picture.

Houthis - I'd say they are flighty enough but geographically distant so I can't see them directly threatening Israel. Taking out a few tankers would be very disruptive of course but that would economically affect a lot of countries.

Hezbollah - they seem to have been quiet enough but I don't know what their snapping point would be.

Iran would probably just keep supporting the terrorists without getting directly involved - but the recent assassination has probably raised their blood pressure a lot.

Overall, I think any serous escalation would come from Hezbollah in Lebanon before anywhere else. I'd say the UN would do their best and US would support.

But is there was an escalation, I'd say it could quickly turn into a pile on - and I've no idea who would respond or how. It would be catastrophic for the middle east, Europe and the world.

I hope cool heads prevail and that it does not materialise.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544605#Comment_121544605

I really don't care how Israel treats Hamas. What I don't like or agree with is how they treat ordinary Palestinians. It's as if being Palestinian is the same as Hamas. Its wrong and unlawful imo.

You could be right about the repercussions effecting other areas as Hezbollah seem to have stepped up their attacks but I can't see it rippling around the world.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544786#Comment_121544786

I wouldn't even describe it as revenge. The height of the Blitz took place in late 1940 and early 1941, a good four years earlier. Dresden was mostly about terrorising the German civilian population.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544610#Comment_121544610

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544591#Comment_121544591

I'd a lengthier reply that sort of summised the problems with those bombings and the differnces too.

For one Hamburg and Dresden were at one point crucial nazi centres of industry for transport, communication and munitions among other things.

There sever doubts to how much Dresden even actually contributed and some of that infrastructure was left untouched in industrial centres outside of the city while the city itself where most it's people lived was torched.

The rational behind it was it was the largest unbombed site in the country.

Even Churchill, not exactly a fanbof peace, love and good for all had his misgivings about it, and you want find many historians saying it was just a cost of war, because it shouldn't have and didn't have to be.

You also can't compare Hamburg or Dresden to gaza for the simple reason that 2 of those were relatively prosperous regions that did have some sort of significance to both their own people and the allies in terms of being important strategically in a number of ways.

Gaza has no airport since Israel bombed it. It has little to no industry. It has no rights in its own international waters, it's fishermen routinely shot at by IDF boats.

More to the point, it is one of the poorest, most densely populated places on earth. Israel should really have been able to take a moment to pause and think about it's bombing campaign and know the devastating impact it was going to have in ordinary people and make them look like a bunch of tossers

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544314#Comment_121544314

"So to me, the dilemma is a simple one - you're either with them, or you're with the people who want to wipe them out."

To me, the dilemma is also simple one - you either support the wholesale murder of innocent civilians or you don't.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544713#Comment_121544713

You might want to tell the un so. Same user (joined October 2023 nicely) has videos of their amazing beaches.. I've no doubt they are, but they're the same beaches that Israel only a number years ago opened fire on a group of children playing football from a gunboat....so yes, they are effectively in an open air prison, and not by their choosing. Israel are the wardens and Hamas are the awful prison gang and the ordinary Palestinians are getting it from both sides

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544463#Comment_121544463

"There's far more blatant 'death to Israel' posted here"

Notwithstanding those who have been threadbanned, who is posting "death to Israel"?

jmreire

Nacho, you may want to refresh your memory about what was posted about the tunnels back to just after 7th of Oct, and when the IDF began their attack on Gaza.

And I revert to my original opinion on the tunnels ie: Wait and see, I'm sure that there's plenty of tales yet to emerge when the saga finally ends. And for some of the tunnels, especially the flooded ones, it could well be a long time before that story is written.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544605#Comment_121544605

Sorry what is travelling the world? Islamic terrorism? , which I don't think Hamas is exactly has been around for a while. This is like your tip of the spear comment- I'm genuinely confused by some of your arguments you have put forth.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544843#Comment_121544843

But do you think the right way to get rid of tunnels do you support bombing form the sky with the associated civilian casualties? For someone who a while back was adamant they were neutral you sure seem to confine your criticisms to one side of this long running conflict.

Wolf359f

I always get confused with the comparison with the blitz and the war on Gaza. Hamas declare war on Israel, Israel launch an attack. People claim what they are doing is self defense. Britain declared war on Germany.... So the blitz was Germany acting in self defense?

Using the self defense logic all the dead civilians during the blitz was Britain's fault, right?

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544809#Comment_121544809

I was replying to your post about Isreal bombing Palestinians in areas that the IDF had told them were safe to go to, and then they were bombed, I mentioned one possible explanation as to why Israel would deliberately bomb an area that they had said was safe, was because the IDF had driven Hamas out of the tunnels, and they had mixed with the Palestinian population in the safe areas, and thus, the IDF bombed them. And very unfortunate for the Palestinian civilians who were sheltering there. As for the reverberations around the world Tayto, yes, I think that will happen on a personal level for sure especially anywhere you have Muslims coming into contact Israeli's or perceived Israeli supporters, this can and will happen. Even worse, if it will broaden into a far wider conflict, Country V Country, and no one knows where this could end up. It's not for nothing that the US has sent a huge battle group to the region. Maybe Biden knows something we don't know?

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544843#Comment_121544843

I seem to recall the dispute at the time was not whether Hamas used Tunnels or had operating bases from these tunnels, it was whether Hamas were using tunnels under the Al Shifa Hospital as a main command center. From the evidence presented by the IDF it didn't look like they were. Although perhaps Hamas had time to clear it out , but we may never know. I am in agreement that more stories about the extent of the tunnel network will emerge in the months ahead. I wasn't aware tunnels had been flooded already. If that is the case then many Hamas people along with hostages could be found dead sometime next year.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544817#Comment_121544817

Revenge or terrorizing......you think that the bombing of British Citys would be forgotten, even in 4 years? I doubt it very much. Not so many, if any, I guess from that time, back in the 1940-45's. But I remember my Parents who were in London during the bombing still talking about it in the late 80's / 90's. So I'm pretty sure that if they could still remember it years later, so could the British people remember it just 4 years later. So, you can take your pick, Terrorizing or Revenge? Or the third option, both? Thats the one I'd be going for.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544844#Comment_121544844

Yes, Islamic Jihadi terrorism has been around since the 6th century. It has gone through periods of relative quietness or been dormant on occasions. It's my guess that what's happening now in Palestine will trigger another "active " phase even above and beyond what has been happening elsewhere worldwide. There's a post a few pages back about some Jews in an US institute / college who had to hide in the Library because they were afraid after all the anti-semitic talk that was going on around them.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121545133#Comment_121545133

Yeah whatabout.

Rosahane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544844#Comment_121544844

Yes, Islamic Terrorism is travelling the world!

Latest example:

https://www.breitbart.com/africa/2023/12/28/nigeria-christmas-massacre-death-toll-hits-195-10000-displaced-more-than-1000-homes-burned-down/

https://abcnews.go.com/US/europol-director-islamist-terrorism-remains-biggest-terror-threat/story?id=104100812

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544865#Comment_121544865

You obviously missed my post awhile back, where I stated that I unreservedly condemned anyone at any time or place who killed or hurt in any way, innocent men, women and children. And I have not changed my opinion. As for the tunnels, I believe that the best way to "eliminate" Hamas is in the tunnels, because they themselves have said the protection of the tunnels was only for Hamas and not for ordinary Palestinian's. The downside is of course that these tunnels run underneath practically all of Gaza, and of course require very powerful penetrative bombs to achieve their aims, which unfortunately means the death's / injuries of many Palestinians.