Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562716#Comment_121562716

No, they are not justified in using full force if that means innocent civilians die.

There is a requirement for proportionality. The US have called Israel out on this.

If Israel were to use full force, they would use a nuclear weapon. You OK with that?

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562856#Comment_121562856

As I said in my OP... Some experts, I never said all experts.

Ultimately all the alleged war crimes and breaches of international law etc... will end up with legal arguments from both sides.

If Israel is using the self defense clause, then the other side will argue Gaza was under occupation etc...

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562946#Comment_121562946

To put simply then do you think that the Israeli methods resulting in the killing more civilians than militants should continue or should they rethink their methods? Is there any point at which the civilian deaths would be too high for you to continue to support these methods given the figure quoted as 25k Hamas militants in total?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562976#Comment_121562976

This thread is about Gaza/Israel so of course it is going to be focused on this topic. If you are against what Israel is doing then it makes no sense to be against posters focusing on this topic.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562972#Comment_121562972

It makes no difference - the standard you have there would never have been applied to any other full-scale conflict in history.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562996#Comment_121562996

What standard?? Do you think Israel is employing a decent standard of anything towards the innocent women and children of Gaza? I heard a 'war expert' on Newstalk this morning who estimated that the IDF might have killed less than 2K of Hamas in all their attacks and bombing?? That's a very poor standard if they are only attacking Hamas. Less than 2 thousand of nearly 23 thousand.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563023#Comment_121563023

Your standard seems to be that Israel is not allowed to cause collateral damage which has never been applied to any full scale conflict in human history, so far as I am aware.

I suspect that the Gaza death toll has to do with both the insane population density of Gaza and Hamas' predilection for masquerading as civilians and using human shields. Nothing Israel can do about any of that.

As I said, if Israel is deliberately targeting civilians, that's bad, and I would absolutely oppose it, but the simple fact is that Israel has casus belli so long as Hamas threatens them and their people.

nachouser

Casus belli. JFC.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562981#Comment_121562981

Thanks.

Of course too many innocent civilians have died. I have said this before. The whole ‘how many is too many?’ was already discussed. I’m not sure why you are starting it up again. Even the poster who asked the question couldn’t come up with a number! The correct answer is that one is too many.

Israel is of course entitled to neutralise the threat to its citizens which it is doing. Sadly Hamas are still fighting, firing rockets and holding innocent hostages. How many hostages is too many?

btw I will tell you what I support not vice versa thank you very much.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562994#Comment_121562994

Double standards are fair game IMHO.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563131#Comment_121563131

What double standard though? If no number can be applied to civilian casualties why be against the Saudis are doing in Yemen or Assad to the rebel cities in Syria? Are the houthis not lobbing missiles at the Saudis and being supported by Iran?

It is just very clear from what those who support this continued operation actually support outside of what the official Israeli policy is.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563023#Comment_121563023

And what did the ‘war expert’ think Israel should do to solve the problem instead, given it has circa 25000 heavily armed terrorists bent on its destruction on its doorstep?

batman75

The murder of the deputy of Hamas in an attack in Beirut today may be Israel crossing a rubicon. It may force Hezbollah into a full scale war with Israel. Hezbollah has the military capability to cause serious harm to Israel.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563160#Comment_121563160

The double standards that have been highlighted by plenty of posters (that TL tries to excuse as whataboutery), namely that it’s really only when Israel are involved that so many otherwise normal people get exercised to protest or march or whatever you want to call it. Plenty of muslims killing muslims or chinese killing muslims but rarely a squeak.

On the subject of marches as I have mentioned numerous times there are no ‘Hamas Out’ or ‘Ceasefire now Hamas’ or ‘Release Hostages now Hamas’ signs or chants. Not very balanced for self branded peace activists.

There was only one exception (that I am aware of) to the above where a protester held up a ‘Hamas Out’ poster and was basically set upon. So I suppose you could also say that there are double standards in how both sides approach the two actors in the war itself.

Same double standards when it comes to BDS etc. Where are the same people applying sanctions to SA, China etc etc?

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563160#Comment_121563160

I was tempted to crack a joke about you being all interested in standards again after saying they were irrelevant but not the time or the place or the poster I reckon.

And no the actual war isn’t funny before someone take faux outrage.

nachouser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563126#Comment_121563126

Casually stating that "Israel is of course entitled to neutralise the threat to its citizens which it is doing" is a remarkable attempt to underplay what is actually happening. The "sadly" you added. Yeah, you don't mean that.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563181#Comment_121563181

I fear that this may also impact the remaining hostages in Gaza. Hamas have already said they will not return the hostages until hostilities have ceased. Following the killing in Beirut, it is possible Hamas will simply kill them all. The families in Israel must be distraught.

As regards the wider conflict, this is a red line Hezbollah called out:

"In August, Hezbollah’s leader, Hassan Nasrallah warned of a "severe reaction" to any Israeli assassination carried out on Lebanese territory."

In addition, Iran Foreign Ministry spokesperson Nasser Kanaani says the explosion in Beirut will "undoubtedly ignite another surge in the veins of resistance and the motivation to fight". Kanaani added this will also encourage resistance to fight against Israel, not only in Palestinian territories but also in the region and "among all freedom-seekers worldwide".

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67859135?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6594667eb255e96a9e4bbd85%26Killing%20Hamas%20leader%20in%20Lebanon%20carries%20risks%20for%20Israel%262024-01-02T19%3A54%3A03.386Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:1b9b9733-56e0-48c8-8b92-6e2c86a251ab&pinned_post_asset_id=6594667eb255e96a9e4bbd85&pinned_post_type=share

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563278#Comment_121563278

So of course , if hamas kill the hostages (and it's extremely unlikely imo that many already haven't been killed, especially the men) it will all be Israels fault. Hamas just aren't culpable for anything in the eyes of some people are they?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563211#Comment_121563211

I dont see the point of comparing the conflict with another but it seems some it is popular in the thread to compare to ww2 or to other conflicts in the region. I am not against either as long as it is not a deflection tactic. But yes Saudis and Assad bad for killing civilians, Israel also perhaps bad but its war or they dont intend to or other excuses like that.

Would I agree that Israel seems to get undue attention for its actions- Yes. Do I care if it stops them from killing innocent civilians- No.

Timberrrrrrrr

Thread on South Africa's case against Israel for the alleged war crimes commited

Link to the case in the opening post.

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1742276751907000828?t=2OVFVnwvEO523_YCZNFiCg&s=19

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563455#Comment_121563455

The whole thread is out of context? I dont think this thread is for you then, if this is what you honestly believe.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563337#Comment_121563337

I never said that it was Israel's "fault" and I certainly did not say Hamas were not to blame.

Current estimates are that 129 hostages remain in Gaza. No-one I'm aware of has estimated how many of those are actually alive. I'm assuming that your estimation of "many of the men having already been killed" is pure speculation.

All I'm pointing out is the gravity of the event and its impact on the current situation - especially the hostages. I would sincerely hope cool heads will prevail (perhaps Egypt/Jordan) and the hostages will remain untouched and released as soon as possible.

I certainly believe that Israel has not done the hostages any favours with this action. And may not have done Israel any favours either:

"Hezbollah says the killing was "a serious assault on Lebanon" and "a dangerous development in course of war between the enemy and the axis of the resistance" in a post on Telegram.

It "will not go without a response or punishment," it adds."

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563410#Comment_121563410

Just as well there is not a court available to investigate, how a bunch of neandethals can bring a modern country to its knees in 2 decades.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563641#Comment_121563641

Well aren't you nice?

And when I say nice I mean racist 🙄

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563410#Comment_121563410

I knew that babies were found in ICU, decomposing in their beds. But I didn't know that the IDF dug up a mass grave at the hospital.

Sick.

81. Other Palestinians have died as a direct result of Israel cutting off electricity and fuel to hospitals; they include five premature babies and 40 ICU and kidney patients at Al Shifa hospital. Other Palestinians have died as a direct result of Israel’s forced evacuation of hospitals, including at least four babies in Al Nasr hospital, whose tiny bodies were found weeks later –– during a temporary ceasefire –– decomposing in their hospital beds.356 Hospital courtyards have been turned into sites of mass graves: at Al-Shifa Hospital, it was medics themselves who had to dig a mass grave for the decomposing bodies of 179 patients and others.358 Israeli bulldozers excavated and exhumed a hospital mass grave in the besieged Kamal Adwan hospital on 16 December, where 26 Palestinians had been buried. Speaking to CNN, Hossam Abu Safiya, Head of Paediatric Services at Kamal Adwan Hospital, stated, “[t]he soldiers dug up the graves this morning and dragged the bodies with bulldozers, then crushed the bodies with the bulldozers … I have never seen such a thing before”.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563410#Comment_121563410

From the above document.

Israeli Army reservist “motivational speech”: On 11 October 2023, 95-year old Israeli army reservist Ezra Yachin — a veteran of the Deir Yassin massacre during the 1948 Nakba — reportedly called up for reserve duty to “boost morale” amongst Israeli troops ahead of the ground invasion, was broadcast on social media inciting other soldiers to genocide as follows, while being driven around in an Israeli army vehicle, dressed in Israeli army fatigues:

“Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live . . . Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. If you have an Arab neighbour, don't wait, go to his home and shoot him . . . We want to invade, not like before, we want to enter and destroy what’s in front of us, and destroy houses, then destroy the one after it. With all of our forces, complete destruction, enter and destroy. As you can see, we will witness things we’ve never dreamed of. Let them drop bombs on them and erase them.”

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563044#Comment_121563044

Well that would not explain shooting nuns in a church while praying, bombing ambulances, targeting journalists who were clearly wearing Press I/D and telling people to leave an area and bombing them when they get to the designated area. There are so many documented incidents that they take the 'accident' out of the equation. Even the Pope has called them out on it.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563173#Comment_121563173

He said that the IDF are killing too many innocents and that in his view the war is far from over as Hamas seem to be waiting for a fight at close quarters or words to that effect. The problem is not being solved in the manner they are approaching it.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563181#Comment_121563181

Hopefully that won't happen. Taking out a Hamas warmonger is no harm as long as innocents didn't die with him. It may be an international crime but there's so many of those now it might not register.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563200#Comment_121563200

It was whataboutery though. A poster a few days ago stated that Israel weren't killing enough Palestinians and not one poster on the Israeli side of this discussion disagreed with him. Whatabout that?