Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121564601#Comment_121564601

Actually the use of atomic bombs against mostly civilian population in Japan is a perfect example of a justified military action that resulted in massive civilian casualties.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121564720#Comment_121564720

You're now trying to apply 1940s standards to 2024. It's nonsense.

The Hama's conflict is an utterly different situation to WW2. It's ludicrous comparison of chalk and cheese.

Hamas is using human shields and hiding in the general population. Its making a target of the civilians it's hiding in. It's baiting Israel. It won't stop.

It doesn't justify what Israel is doing. But that's what keeping this going.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121564815#Comment_121564815

While true, if it happened now it would not be viewed as justified in all likelihood. Same as the concentration camps for Japanese people set up by the Americans in the US. History is written by the victors, and it's all too easy to forget that the civilians of Berlin, Frankfurt, etc were bombed by the Allies similarly to how the civilians of London, Paris, even Ireland north and south, were bombed by the Axis. War is not pretty. In the 1940s there were some journalists but they didnt have the tech then that we have now.

In the 21st century, the propaganda war has taken over, where every man woman and child has a smartphone and each side can post many "dead baby" shock photos. It doesn't make it "right" either.

I also think it's highly hypocritical of ethnic Europeans to criticise Israel, as the whole reason Israel received so much jewish migration and return in the 19th and early 20th century and during both world wars, was because of discrimination and worse against jews by western europeans. (It must be remembered that, while the current state of Israel was created by the UN in 1947, a state of Israel has existed at that location for millennia dating back to before the Romans)

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121564844#Comment_121564844

That was my point. The poster said that they wanted israel to be held to the same standards as the allies. I pointed out that the standards the allies met were dirt and Israel should be held to a higher standard.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121564858#Comment_121564858

This is a digression, but the allied bombing campaign was far worse than the blitz. The allies killed as many in one night as the Germans did in the whole blitz. So when you say what happened in Germany was similar to what the Germans did, you're mistaken.

And btw, the allies actually hid some of the damage they caused. After the atomic bombs were dropped the restricted journalists who could access the sites. It was actually an Irishman who recorded footage of the aftermath and to make sure the footage would be available he even made copies.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-41188252.html

mikewebber

The fact that there's no conflict resolution is a disaster

It's still dropping bombs on people and politics taking preference

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121564858#Comment_121564858

It won't make the same sense today, it doesn't really compare. When they used them they were the only ones that had them and they needed to show that to the whole world, especially the russians.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121564927#Comment_121564927

yep. The only way that israel can ever have long term security is by getting peace. Bombing civilians will only generate more militants.

People who are pro Israel will point out that Palestinians walked away from previous negotiations and that's true. But israel also walked away. And throughout the Obama presidency Israel refused to even talk about peace negotiations with the Palestinians.

Bombing might get some short term security. But it's postponing the next act of violence. They also need to say that they're willing to negotiate with more moderate Palestinians and make some moves in that direction.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121564844#Comment_121564844

"Hamas is using human shields and hiding in the general population. Its making a target of the civilians it's hiding in. It's baiting Israel. It won't stop."

That is a disgraceful take on the slaughter of civilians. Victim blaming par excellence. You might as well be honest and propose wiping out the remaining Palestinian population and/or driving them out altogether. Oh wait, but they can't leave.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121564575#Comment_121564575

Hmm, where to start.

When Gazans have to leave its ethnic cleansing but Israelis should leave …

A lot of name calling etc doesn’t make it true.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121564720#Comment_121564720

So what strategy would work then?

Essy to comment as you have as a neutral in WW2. If it wasn’t for the allies Ireland would have been under the Nazi heel. Comes across as slightly ungrateful really.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121564990#Comment_121564990

Ireland was "neutral" in ww2. In reality, we had a similar position as we had in ww1. Leaving the lights on in Dublin to direct the Germans to Belfast. Working with the Germans so that the bombs up north hit loyalist but not republican areas. Sending condolences (official state condolences I may add) on the death of Hitler. We serve neither King nor Kaiser, but in reality any defeat of the British would have been met with positive response in ireland.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121564876#Comment_121564876

The standard should be stop killing people. Why you make it only apply to one side I've no idea.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565008#Comment_121565008

Of course, ceasefire and permanent peace would be what we all want. I'm 100% behind Israel on this conflict but my preferred outcome would of course be "peace in our time".

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565001#Comment_121565001

You might want to lay off the BNP-UVF koolaid

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121564978#Comment_121564978

In what way are Hamas blameless victims?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121564963#Comment_121564963

If there was some greater good in allowing the war to fester for another year let's hear it. Or have the Stalin steamroller through Asia and Europe let's hear that also.

Actually let's not. Far too much ill-informed analogies about WW2

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121564966#Comment_121564966

At least in this I agree with you.

"...violence begets violence..." Etc..

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565023#Comment_121565023

As a proud Irishman I have never been more insulted! I can't think of two less related groups to me than those two. I had family members in the Ira in the 70's ffs.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565001#Comment_121565001

Ireland response in WW2 was kinda petty. Very Dev. That said war of independence and civil war was very recent. Britain has an abysmal record with Ireland.

Flinty997

....

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565008#Comment_121565008

Show me where I made it about one side. I've condemned Hamas multiple times in this thread. I said the nazi's and japanese were bad (the fact that I should even have to say that shows how ridiculous this thread is). I responded to a post where someone said that Israel should be held to the same standards the allies were and I pointed out that when it came to targeting enemy civilians the allies had next to no standards. So maybe we should apply higher standards than are applied to the allies in WW2 and condemn anyone who targets civilians or recklessly bombs a city without caring about civilian casulties.

For some reason you seem to think that I'm a nazi/Japanese/hamas supporter just because I say that their opponents, namely the allies/israel, should be held to account for killing civilians.

Tell you what, I'll drop it now. You have your way. Dropping a nuke on a city is fine. Nothing wrong with it. Carpet bombing is dandy. We should encourage israel to do it. hamas too since it seems to be a legitimate tactic. You have convinced me that the mass killing of civilians can be excused and you win the internet for today.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565115#Comment_121565115

Kettle black. I didn't excuse anything.

Implying you can have a clean war is naive and childish. It's not a video game. If someone keeps posting things out of historical context, they can expect to called on it.

Flinty997

Look at the first post and posts in this thread.

It was obvious to people who commented back then what would happen.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565045#Comment_121565045

I may be misreading your post, but just to be sure: my point was that the use of atomic bombs was entirely justified.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565230#Comment_121565230

Wasn't aimed at you. Events don't happen in a vacuum. Some posters think they can change the narrative by referring to things out of context.

Theres for more recent examples of area bombing, Ukraine for example. But what Israel is doing is scorched earth which is different. No less abhorrent for sure.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121564205#Comment_121564205

It seems to me to be a win/win for Israel.

If Hezbollah decides it wants no part of what Israel is doing to Hamas right now, then Israel has just dealt with one of its targets pain-free. If Hezbollah does decide to respond, then the Israeli attitude right now is "If you really want to start it, we'll be happy to finish it" and they'll degrade Hezbollah as well. If Hezbollah causes Israeli casualties in the process, that's war. Israel isn't afraid of it.

Further, this isn't 2006 any more, when Hezbollah raised eyebrows. There are two main differences. 1) Israel knows from the start that they're dealing with a competent force, they won't make the same mistakes they made early in the 2006 incursion thinking it was just a group of insurgents. 2) Israel is under full wartime mobilisation* for the first time in a half-century: The strength which defended the country against multiple conventional attackers at the same time. Israel has plenty of manpower available for fighting Hamas and Hezbollah at the same time.

*They've actually announced a small start to demobilisation on Monday, though two brigades isn't much in the big scheme of things. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/01/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-troop-withdrawal.html

A worrying development

https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0103/1424599-iran-explosions/

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565230#Comment_121565230

But I presume you think that the use of an atom bomb is not justified in this scenario? So ww2 is not totally like this scenario? I'm now sure why a conflict 80 years is somehow supposed to direct how countries act now.

There have a number of conflicts since.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565641#Comment_121565641

Yes. It maybe why Israel carried out the strike in the first place. Mossad more than likely has spies high up in Hezbollah, perhaps their assessment is Hezbollah will strike back but it will be similar in scale to what we have already seen to avoid an all out war. Or it could be they are keen to remove the threat of Hezbollah once and for all but don't want to be seen as the side that initiated another war. They are testing Hezbollah's resolve with this strike. The pressure on Nasrallah and those within Hezbollah who are keen to avoid an all out war will have grown now. As you say from Israel's perspective it could be a win win. A war with Hezbollah would undoubtedly be costly for Israel, but it's a war they would ultimately win and Hezbollah would be decimated in the process. I don't think Iran would intervene directly to take on Israel either.