Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594023#Comment_121594023

That's a compelling argument.

I do understand how Israelis feel - it was clear to me that they are surrounded by those who would wipe them off the face of the earth - of course they were justified in self defence from their inception.

I do believe there must be some Israelis who clearly see the irony of today versus the 1940's. I do know that many Israelis I spoke with were happy to live and let live (that was in a time of peace).

I am surprised at the high percentage of Israelis who wish the campaign to continue.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593904#Comment_121593904

How about modifying point B to say that any Gazan who wants to leave Gaza and return to reclaim their family's land can do so?

Why do you include South Africa and the Arab States as having funding obligations to rebuild the destruction that Israel deliberately caused? Revenge/retaliation against SA for having the temerity to refer Israel to the ICC?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594070#Comment_121594070

You said:

"I don't think anyone said there were NO cross border incidents"

I just answered that bit.

But since you then carried on, again, you're totally mistaking the point I was making. It wasn't about the IRA or the north. I didn't bring that up.

You were asked a question a long time ago about the Brits bombing Irish cities in retribution for bombings - and you've gone off on a total Billy tangent.

My general point is that murder is murder. Whether it's Warrington, Gaza or Israel.There is no justification for murder.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594047#Comment_121594047

In principle, Israel is justified in its aims of eliminating Hamas

This can mean different things. I don't think Israel can get away scot free on killing everyone affiliated with Hamas given that Israel directly, and indirectly, are responsible for the circumstances which both created the organisation and drove people towards it.

Timberrrrrrrr

Are Israel about to start a war with Lebanon?

https://twitter.com/Megatron_ron/status/1744800133194133629?t=v0C2Y0anD_efJZv0TKkSKQ&s=19

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594081#Comment_121594081

What are you even talking about now?

I was replying to your assertion that there were no cross-border attacks. Are you losing your way a bit now?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593955#Comment_121593955

I believe they have renounced the use of violence against Israel to attain their goals and will only use political means. They were totally at odds with Hamas.

So certainly possible - if the Israeli government is moderate and would accept it.

I think also there could be a case for Gaza to have rights to offshore resources. Perhaps someone would assist in extracting the resources and profits used to assist in rebuilding Gaza.

Yes to your last point - but equally applicable to anyone found guilty on the other side.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594089#Comment_121594089

I'm sure there are many Israelis who do not agree with what's happening right now. I know some of them who are definitely not happy.

There are many many Israelis who do not support Netanyahu.

I'd say the ones that want it to continue are just hoping that it will bring it all to an end. Now that's just my thinking, based on nothing other then speaking to a few Israelis.

I don't believe that the majority are happy about thousands of innocents being killed.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594136#Comment_121594136

Totally agree - hence "in principle".

Israel has culpability in creating/sustaining conditions for Hamas to take control. I honestly don't know enough about Hamas - perhaps there are moderates within who would assist the process.

The PLO did it so no reason Hamas couldn't.

And by "eliminating" I didn't mean killing. "neutralising the threat" would be what I meant.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594214#Comment_121594214

Many of them appear to have been indoctrinated to hate the Palestinians and consider them as subhuman

https://twitter.com/ME_Observer_/status/1731160875308888191

nacho libre

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67922238

Interesting. This I suspect is one of the main reasons Hamas launched the October 7th attacks.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593633#Comment_121593633

This one ticks all the bingo cards and basically oversimlifies the fact that a zionist movement supported by colonial rulers who were themselves vehemently anti muslim at the end of the `19th and start of 20th century, enabled the situation to arise in which people could simply be removed at the stroke of a pen This combined with a collective shrug and a collective guilt over ignoring what was happening in central europe between 1930-1945 lead to the creation of a de facto ethno state out of nowhere, leading to the instant creation of 100,000s of refugees who were forced to leave their homes and since then many more have been illegally displaced

But yes, it's simply anti **** semtiism. Stop it. It's not. It's antiimperialism. Anti just wanting to stop having the boot come down on you by some emboldened power because they have bigger guns

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594231#Comment_121594231

Great video. Shows what's actually going on.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594110#Comment_121594110

If there is a right of return, then all the Arab states who expelled Jews will have to either take them back or reimburse them (depending on the terms of the agreement for Palestinians) - right?

And presumably the European states that allowed Jews to be murdered, thus forcing them to leave for Israel, will also be on the hook for something too?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594274#Comment_121594274

The problem with all of this is that for Israel to actually be guilty of "colonialism" (in terms of its formation and for example 1967 borders) is that by definition, a colony must have a Metropole-Colony relationship, a homeland with which settlers in the colony identify. Israel has no such relationship with anywhere else in the world. At most, the term colonialism might apply to Israeli settlements in the West Bank, but to assert this you must accept that Israel within the 67 borders is a legitimate State of Israel.

Trying to undermine Israel now isn't "antiimperialism" it's anti-Semitism. It openly threatens the 7+ million Jews (nearly half of all Jews in the world) who call Israel their home who share a common identity, language, ethnicity and culture.

As to the refugees, there were more Jewish refugees who fled the rest of the Middle East than there were Arabs who fled Israel/Palestine between '47 and '67. 900,000 Jews in all left the rest of the Middle East of which 600,000 went TO Israel, vs. 700,000 Arabs who left. The "refugees" argument of Israel's haters is BS.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594323#Comment_121594323

Let them go back and live on any land in Arab states they can show was taken from them or their families. Not sure why you'd be making that conditional.

Germany already paid reparations to Israel - who accepted on behalf of Jewish victims - (and other Jewish representative organisations) decades ago. That was settled and agreed. You can't have continuous and repeated reparations for the same thing over and over again.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594274#Comment_121594274

You must have missed the Jewish fighting the British in the British Mandate - it was more a case of the British gave up fighting them, rather than actively supporting them. Does the name "King David Hotel" not ring a bell with you?

Chamberlain's 1939 White Paper tried to limit Jewish immigration to 75,000 for five years - and said that further immigration would then be determined by the Arab majority. (That failed only because they couldn't stop all the other European nations from allowing/inciting Jews to leave for Palestine.)

They also restricted Jews from buying Arab land in all but 5% of the Mandate.

Basically, you may as well say the British "supported" the Indians at the point at which they gave up fighting them to keep India British.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594363#Comment_121594363

Germany paid for trying to exterminate them, for killing 6 million of them. How much did the Soviet Union/Russia, or the various Baltic states, or Ukraine, or Poland, Hungary, Czechia etc ever pay for all the Jews who were expropriated from those states? Zero?

What about Turkey? North Africa? Millions of Jews were expelled from those countries too. Again, I'm not aware of them ever getting a penny - are you?

So no, they haven't had more than a tiny share of the reparations they should be due if you're wanting to see the Palestinians recompensed for their losses - most of whom, by the way, can't show any evidence of their ownership because they were illiterate, and kept no documents.

I mean, I'm sure you wouldn't be applying a double standard here, and would expect the Palestinians to provide the same level of evidence of ownership - right?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594231#Comment_121594231

Powerful.

told my Jewish friend I was going to visit Bethlehem and Jericho. Was told "don't, the Arabs will kill you".

I only told one person (close Jewish friend) that a gave a lift to a Palestinian bloke each evening. She was horrified. He was well over 60.

I heard today that the lead judge in the ICJ to hear the upcoming genocide case is a holocaust survivor.

Also heard Blinken state that the case is "meritless".

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594258#Comment_121594258

Thats an interesting article - many sentiments in there that I agree with.

The final paragraph is particularly powerful.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594433#Comment_121594433

Irrelevant. If the British government settled and paid reparations to Ireland to cover all past wrongs in 1922, I couldn't go back now to them and demand more reparations now. Nor could I go and demand that Scotland pay reparations, or India, or Australia, or Wales, or Guernsey or anywhere else.

It's all about the money and compo for some!

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594459#Comment_121594459

The Germans are not responsible for paying for losses caused to Jews in the Soviet Union. That just makes no sense. So if people are still entitled to reparations for losses 80 years later - or to recover their lands (as long as they have evidence, you say) then the Jews in those countries are also part of that.

As for your strange point about Scotland etc - the British government are responsible for Scotland. So of course reparations from the British would cover Scotland. But not if you were an Italian peasant who'd been expropriated in the Val d'Aoste - you'd have to see the French or Swiss government for that. Like a Jew in Belarus wouldn't get reparations from Germany for the loss of his home.

And of course, Palestinians who can't prove their ownership of land in Palestine have no more rights than Jews who can't prove they owned a house and business in, say, Vilnius. Right?

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594363#Comment_121594363

Right. So no settlement ever.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594478#Comment_121594478

When you accept a settlement, or a representative body accepts a settlement on your behalf, that is the end of it. My grandfather had some land taken by CPO to build a road. He didn't want to sell it but they took it and compensated him. My father wasn't subsequently entitled to go and claim more compensation or take back that land. I'm not entitled to more compensation for it. None of my descendants will be entitled in perpetuity to claim for it.

You need to get over the obsession with entitlement to money money money for the same thing repeated over and over again.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594437#Comment_121594437

LOL. Considering the nonsense you came up with to completely misunderstand what I said over on the thread about Iran this is hilarious. I don't know if it was deliberate because you're so desperate to disagree with anything I post, or whether you really could have misunderstood to that extent. Though it's possible, going by the level of your discussion on here.

(That thread is now closed so I couldn't reply there)

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594504#Comment_121594504

That's a weird response. Perhaps try reading what you quote before quoting it next time.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594521#Comment_121594521

Well you are lucky then that you couldn't respond. Because you'd end up being embarrassed, although fortunately for yourself you probably wouldn't realise it.

Along with drinking the zionist kool-aid about Palestinians being savage inhumans, you also appear to have done the same in relation to their propaganda about Iran. It's pure ignorance.

Any Iranian I met was a nice person. And extremely well educated. Both male and female.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594437#Comment_121594437

Really? How so? As to why I post in defence of Israel, it's because I foresee the possibility of history repeating itself in a really nasty and unpleasant way.

Hey boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594110#Comment_121594110

B. If within Israel that isn’t realistic whether fair or unfair, right or wrong. Jews lost their homes as well. We need to move on.

Re: SA and Arab States. My simple view is that people who chip in with criticisms and issues should be willing to help. Ideally Iran and Qatar would pay everything given Israel was attacked but highly unlikely plus I think there would be enough goodwill internationally to chip in. In fairness to Israel I would imagine they would contribute if a peaceful solution was possible.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594542#Comment_121594542

Even more nasty and unpleasant than they are doing right now to the Palestinians? I don't think Israels actions can really get any more nasty or unpleasant to be fair. Perhaps increase in scale, but not in character

Like yourself, I have no doubt that they will repeat it once they are let. They have form and they do appear to have a particular lust for murdering.