Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121614703#Comment_121614703

See my post # 27590. My answer to your question on any criticism of Israel being (necessarily) anti-Semitic was NO.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121614703#Comment_121614703

One thing we've seen as information comes out about this war, is that it's far from mindless. Hamas knows what they're doing and they're getting the results they want. Likewise Israel, who aren't getting the results they want - so far.

riffmongous

It's interesting to see the planned German intervention on behalf of Israel is being criticised by another one of their genocide victims

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-67974067

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612146#Comment_121612146

But Hamas are the legally elected government of Gaza - or the closest thing there is to that. So who has the authority to remove them, and what would the legal procedure be? Surely it would be much like the UN saying that Kim Jong Un must be removed from power?

Hamas are probably more representative of Palestinians than KJU is of the average North Korean. The latter have certainly had less say in having him as leader (ie none, ever) than Palestinians have had concerning Hamas (ie, all those eligible to vote 18 years ago).

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121615288#Comment_121615288

I have no issue with Israel mounting military efforts to remove Hamas from Gaza (within the rules of war) to the extent they can no longer pose a physical threat to Israel or the inhabitants of Gaza. Israel would also be justified in expecting it to be kept that way for the forseeable future.

However, the issue I have is the way in which Israel is prosecuting this war to the detriment of the civilian population.

My comments earlier about Hamas not being a State/country ref the ICJ were only stating fact. Not that Hamas should/could be dealt with by other means.

Any alleged war crimes by either Hamas or Israel committed should be investigated and prosecuted either locally or through the ICC or ICJ.

Hope that clears it up.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121615288#Comment_121615288

Just on your last point about Hamas being the legally elected government of Gaza.

I'm not competent in elections in general, less so about Gaza and the West Bank.

Just reading the wiki below - it looks a lot more complex than I thought. A couple of standout items:

Turnout was about 75% (about 25% didn't vote)

An exit poll in Feb 2006 found:

Support for a Peace Agreement with Israel: 79.5% in support; 15.5% in opposition

Should Hamas change its policies regarding Israel: Yes – 75.2%; No – 24.8%

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612631#Comment_121612631

For balance:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67976051

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121615516#Comment_121615516

That's the problem with electing a party who don't pretend to be democratic: despite having a tiny majority, they immediately set about killing their Palestinian opponents, thus ensuring their position as the government of the country (and Netanyahu and others on the right foolishly chose to encourage them over the PA in the West Bank, hoping that internal divisions among the Palestinians would strengthen Israel, with the results that we saw in October).

But here's the thing: within Gaza, Hamas are as "legally representative" a government as any number of states around the world, and more so than many states including many Arab states. What democratic legitimacy does the Saudi government have? Yet nobody would think of saying they were a terrorist group and therefore shouldn't be held to the same rules on international relationships as any other. Do the CCP have genuine democratic support in China? But nobody would excuse them attacking Taiwan on the basis that the average Chinese person had never voted for them. If the US decided to attack in return (or if Taiwan did so) any civilian deaths would be considered collateral damage.

dmcdona

Discussions on "the day after" are at an early stage but posturing has begun. Hopefully quick progress will be made to recover Gaza - physically, mentally and politically.

However, I doubt 80% of Gazans would be up for a peace agreement with Israel as they were in 2006.

The Israeli campaign continues to be a strategic failure as well as a humanitarian one.

Galwayguy35

Not sure how the moron who paint sprayed his statue thinks Luke Kelly is going to free Palestine.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121614459#Comment_121614459

Actually left/right defines this almost perfectly. White supremacists who hate Jews are a small outlier group of cranks that inhabit message boards like 8chan or maybe Stormfront if that's still a thing. They barely exist IRL. Mainstream conservatives are behind Israel and its right to exist, 100%.

The radical left by contrast really seems to have it in for Israel and by extension the 7+ million Jews who call it their home. I'm not sure who hates them more: Hamas, Iran, ISIS etc or the Western Radical Left.

Ironically, the sense I get is that the neo-Nazis and the Radical Left hate the Jews for entirely opposing reasons. Neo-Nazis, KKK types etc. consider the Jews to be not white (even the Ashkenazi and Russian Jews) while the Left seems to have a problem with Israel and its Jews because they consider Jews to be white (even the Mizrahi, Sephardi, Ethiopian and mixed race Jews). And of course there are the Islamists, who want them all subjugated or killed. Little wonder if the Israelis have a siege mentality and elect parties like Likud.

Timberrrrrrrr

We need to commit genocide so Israeli settlers can "see the sea"

https://twitter.com/ahmedyehia___/status/1746769693149446554?t=D2G9Ko01c56WOUHIKp0KoQ&s=19

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121617168#Comment_121617168

Yeah I think the failure of International diplomacy is the failure to split out Israel’s right to be militarily prepared and defend itself from terrorism or aggression; from the settler movement, legislation that impinges rights of non Jews in Israel, unwarranted aggression and periodic murder of Palestinian civilians and journalists in the West Bank.

The correct International policy should have been / should be to show a willingness to preserve borders and agreed peace settlements, rather than a blank cheque of support for Israel in everything it does on the idea it is a Western Democratic state. It does not share political systems or values with the EU / U.K. / US.

If the ICJ choose to sanction Israel, that demarcation is made more clear. In that sense the ICJ proceedings have value, even in the knowledge that Israel / US / U.K. will refuse to recognise them.

Although the ICJ being ignored is a net negative for the International order, as is the situation in Gaza as a whole. It all chips away at the West’s moral credibility, and it causes people to increasingly take blunt sides on complex issues. This perpetuates division and extremism; fans the flames of terrorism; while innocent people die or are left to survive in uncertain and inhumane conditions.

It’s all massively depressing and leaves one with a very low confidence in what is to come over the short / medium / long term for the region, but for the world more generally. The West is complicit in what is happening in Gaza, there is no question about it.

rogber

Women doing their job correctly, ignored by men who think they know better:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67958260

dmcdona

Seems that criticism of Israel is no longer anti-Semitism but is indicative of being part of Hamas and/or "terrorist organisations".

Israeli officials have criticised Turkey's actions towards Jehezkel.

Defence Minister Yadav Gallant said Israel had supported Turkey in last year's earthquakes, accusing Turkey of "an expression of hypocrisy".

"In its actions, Turkey serves as the executive arm of Hamas," he said.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67978736

In reference to the ICJ case:

In a statement from New York, Israel’s UN Ambassador Gilad Erdan called the case a “new moral low” and said that by taking it on, “the UN and its institutions have become weapons in service of terrorist organisations.”

Israel accused SA of “functioning as the legal arm of the Hamas terrorist organisation”, labelling the International Court of Justice (ICJ) action “one of the greatest shows of hypocrisy in history”.

Lior Haiat, spokesperson for the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs said the South African lawyers were “Hamas’ representatives in the court”. He added: “South Africa seeks to allow Hamas to return to commit the war crimes, crimes against humanity and sexual crimes they committed repeatedly on 7 October, as its leaders have stated.

Hoboo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121617441#Comment_121617441

Ignored by people who needed an excuse to commit genocide.

They got their excuse.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121617848#Comment_121617848

I dont think the Turks were ever going to be reasonable with that message, I'm sure the footballer probably knew it would get him the sack. Probably would have helped if he just wrote "free the hostages" since the 100 days message could be associated with the bombing of innocents too.

The Israeli spokespeople continue to be the worst.

riffmongous

Arresting and deporting that Israeli player over that is ridiculous. I wonder if UEFA can get involved?

riffmongous

Considering how much value the Israeli services have placed on propaganda and how they are very aware of its importance, they always seem to have terrible spokespeople

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618537#Comment_121618537

I doubt it,if he is deported it's not a football issue and the Turkish FA cant do anything about it.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618537#Comment_121618537

It's a club decision, not an Association issue. The club declared it was a breach of contract and terminated it, which meant his work visa was no longer valid. They deported him quick smart though - they really made a show of him.

It goes to show though, that only radical voices are heard and extreme actions are now not just allowed, but favoured. There should be room for small gestures in any democratic society but now it's just lying head-the-balls, spit-ranting and finger-pointing everywhere. Everyone I know, with any degree of humanity and common sense is calling for a ceasefire and return to a two-state solution.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121617441#Comment_121617441

No indication that that was the cause (or that the superiors or analysts who apparently missed cues from more than just this one observation unit according to the article) were all men.

All sorts of surprise attacks have come throughout history despite the various dots being visible and obvious in hindsight.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619491#Comment_121619491

We have also heard that the Egyptians warned the Israelis too. You would have to wonder if this entire 'War' suited certain people.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619491#Comment_121619491

There were some men in the unit, who weren't listened to either, so I don't think it's a simple case of misogyny.

I gather they were an non-combat unit, so perhaps there was a tendency to dismiss their opinions as not being worth that of "real" soldiers.

political analyst

If pro-Palestine campaigners cared about the victims of the October 7th attacks then they would not be accusing Israel of genocide. The Israeli military campaign is aimed at defeating Hamas in the Gaza Strip. If the death toll given by the Gazan health ministry is true then it's still only around 1% of the Strip's population (and thus only a fraction of 1% of the total Palestinian population of both the Strip and the West Bank) and so it can't be genocide. If killing of civilians in a military operation is incidental, not the aim of the operation, then it's still tragic but it's not a war crime. An Israeli woman who was released from Gaza during the pause in hostilities said there are no innocent Palestinians in Gaza - many civilians in Gaza condoned the October 7th attacks, which were the highest number of murders of Jews in one day since the Holocaust.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620180#Comment_121620180

It is perfectly possible to hold both views at the same time.

The convention on genocide does not mention numbers of people killed or percentages of populations.

Did you have a number or percentage in mind which would trigger "genocide" in your own mind?

Palestinians working in the kibbutzim on Oct 7 were murdered also - not everyone was a Jew or Israeli. And some of those deaths resulted from the Hannibal Directive - the Israelis killed them.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620247#Comment_121620247

The vast majority of the people who were murdered in southern Israel on October 7th were Jews. Hamas wants to wipe-out Israel, which is the world's only Jewish-majority country. The Israeli government has no intention of wiping-out the Gazan population - extreme statements by right-wing ministers are not representative of Israeli government policy.

nachouser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620278#Comment_121620278

Quoting this one for posterity. Remarkable.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620278#Comment_121620278

Not all of them were Jews and not all of them were killed by Hamas. Facts matter.

It's interesting that you focus on the Jews - you ok with non Jewish Israeli citizens being killed? Or just the Jews?

Israel using dumb bombs and bombs of 2000lb bombs with a kill radius of 365 metres is not an indication of indiscriminate killing in such a densely populated area?

I'll ask you again seeing as you brought percentages into the mix - what is your red line percentage for civilian deaths? 2%? 5%? 10%?

And I think you'll find more than the right wingers have made genocidal statements - Netanyahu for one. Even President Herzog had a go. Israelis have stated they want to wipe out all Palestinians - they have also used the phrase "from the river to the sea".

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620494#Comment_121620494

Most of them were Jews. Hamas wants to destroy Israel and thus all Israeli citizens - Jewish and Arab. Stop splitting hairs.