Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Frank Grimes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121648765#Comment_121648765

Don't forget targeting killing of journalists. No doubt they all just happened to be in the way of the bombs/bullets, and/or just got what was coming to them so it's all fine.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121648197#Comment_121648197

Those Palestinian men that included innocent civilians and journalists? If thenIDF treat innocent people that way then yeah.

What happened with then3 hostages was murder, same with the israeli citizen who was shot dead after tackling the Hamas terrorists that attacked innocent people at the bus stop.

That's the IDF way, shoot first ask questions later, not much comfort f9r their families. They did the same.on the 7th, massacred many of their own civilians.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121648968#Comment_121648968

So, you agree that the Palestinian men shown in the Al-Jazeera article weren't killed? They surrendered "safely?" Like Hamas could do, should they so desire? That was the original question - could Hamas safely surrender? Your contention is no, they'd be killed. I've shown that's not the "rule" with the IDF using an example from Al-Jazeera.

Why won't you support the idea of Hamas surrendering? Want to keep the war going?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121648721#Comment_121648721

"Palestine didn’t learn any lessons from attacks on Israel in 1948, 1967 or 1973 so it’s doubtful whether they will learn this time either."

1948, 67 and 1973 were all attacks from neighbouring soverign states like Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Syria,...- no Palestine as a political entity then. No did any of those states attack as advocates for "Palestine," they wanted the land for themselves.

As to whether anyone learns anything, that remains to be seen. Hamas could surrender the hostages and themselves and end this conflict.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121649071#Comment_121649071

Hamas won't surrender imo. They'd be back to square one again. They have the world supporting Palestine too and have Israel in great financial difficulty. They obviously see this as the chance to finally get their own independent state for Palestine. As people have already said Hamas is not Palestine so who knows what happens next?

dmcdona

@Iscreamkone

Just unpacking your recent opinions (which are not facts).

The only group that wants to commit genocide is Hamas and the Palestinians.

They openly state they want to kill all Jews

Hamas would surrender to the IDF or continue the war against the IDF. They have choices.

But it is an option that should be explored in the media. Why is it being ignored in the media at present?

Anyone who ignores it as an option is not neutral.

With this in mind Israel should drive on to provide ‘learnings’ to Palestine/Hamas that their actions have consequences.

In Ireland , the left and the media are not neutral.

So, Hamas and the Palestinians want to kill all the Jews, Hamas can choose to surrender and anyone not agreeing with surrender is not neutral, Israel should teach Palestine/Hamas a lesson.

You're all over the place. You want Hamas to surrender and Israel to press forward with its Genocide. But its Hamas and the Palestinians who want to kill all the Jews.

I googled "the left in Ireland" and all the hits I got were "The Most Important Rules of the Road in Ireland".

OK.

dmcdona

Haaretz:

HOSTAGES: Yonatan Shimriz, whose brother Alon was kidnapped to Gaza on October 7 and accidentally shot to death by IDF soldiers last month, spoke at an anti-government protest in Tel Aviv on Saturday, saying: "This leadership will be remembered as a black stain in history. You have turned an entire country into refugees through years of criminal neglect and betrayal."

dmcdona

Haaretz:

U.S. intelligence agencies estimate that Israeli forces killed 20 to 30 percent of Hamas' fighting force in Gaza, slightly lower than Israel's estimate of 10,000 fighters killed, the WSJ reported. Officials estimate that Hamas still has enough munitions to continue fighting for months, the report said.

dmcdona

Haaretz:

• Israel will escalate fighting with Hezbollah in the "next several weeks" if no diplomatic agreement is reached to distance the Iran-backed organization from the Israel-Lebanon border, several Lebanese officials told the Washington Post, which also noted that Israel told U.S. officials they prefer a negotiated solution to the crisis but that time is running out.

dmcdona

Haaretz

Far-right Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich said that "there is a broad consensus in Israel against a Palestinian state... Israel's friends need to understand that the push to establish a Palestinian state is a push for the next massacre." Nissim Vaturi, a Likud MK, said "there will be no 'Palestinian' state. The blood of our sons was not spilled so that a terrorist state would be established."

dmcdona

Ben Gvir wanted to keep the money...

ISRAEL: Israel's security cabinet approved a plan to transfer tax funds to the Palestinian Authority through Norway. The sole cabinet opponent was far-right National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir.

• The U.S., Egypt and Qatar are pushing Israel and Hamas to agree to a new cease-fire proposal and are likely to begin negotiations in Cairo in the next few days, the Wall Street Journal reported. Officials briefed on the negotiations said both parties have shown interest in engaging in discussions.

dmcdona

Seems to me that Israel is realising that the campaign is not going to result in success (whatever that is).

I'd imagine the international pressure for a ceasefire is huge, internal demonstrations around the hostages and dissension in the cabinet are leading to what seems a willingness to negotiate a cease fire. I hope that includes the release of all hostages.

The Hamas numbers surprise me - combatants and munitions. That will be a sticking point and if that means the bombing continues, the civilians will continue to pay a heavy price.

The Israeli comments on Hezbolla are also surprising. I had read articles stating that they are a different level compared to Hamas. Perhaps the US have promised support. Or perhaps Israel is well able on its own. I don't know what that would mean for UN peace keepers in the region.

The two-state solution seems to be the only game in town internationally. If there are elections in Israel (I think they are set for this year) and the far right gets the boot (seems more likely than not) it should at least stand a chance.

dmcdona

From the FT:

https://www.ft.com/content/6b39f7cf-f6d6-4344-b1e8-a505616423ef

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121647227#Comment_121647227

So just wanting Israel to continue to exist makes someone an evil zionist? That's most people tbh.

What do you think the solution is, if not a two state one?

dmcdona

It seems to me that a two-state solution is the only solution to the cyclical violence.

The current situation hasn't worked for over 75 years. Both parties have suffered immense atrocities.

What that two state solution looks like is anyone's guess.

Iscreamkone

The fact that Hamas/Palestine want to kill ALL Jews is a major stumbling block to a two state solution.

The Palestinians were offered this before but didn’t go for it because the offer was a little less than their ultimate goal of killing ALL Jews.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121651161#Comment_121651161

So what's your solution?

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121651161#Comment_121651161

Do you think a 2 state solution could work if you ignore Gaza, if you take the West Bank. If Israel stopped the ethnic cleansing and agreed to respect borders etc....?

Sudden Valley

If Israelis dont respect a two state solution then they have to give Palestinians more rights in Israel, or another entity like Hamas will inevitably be created. If they dont then they will truly be running an apartheid system with the Palestinians living in the equivalent of the South African townships.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652069#Comment_121652069

That is not the Palestinian's problem. If Israel doesnt want Palestine to be an independent state I cant see any other solution. You cant deny someone a vote in a country because you won't like how they will vote.

Overheal

American shot dead by settler in West Bank

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/louisiana-teen-traveled-west-bank-learn-roots-was-shot-dead-rcna134889

Accused of throwing rocks before they knew who he was it seems. And they’re sticking to that story.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652584#Comment_121652584

Don't be so naïve that advocating for an apartheid system will provide a long term solution to the problem. i believe in a two state solution, not a solution where Israel controls the Palestinians in one state.

Israel will have no long term peace with the Muslim countries surrounding it, if it continues to abuse the Muslims living within the territories it controls so better for them if Palestine is a separate independent state.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652874#Comment_121652874

The muslim countries surrounding Israel want nothing to do with the Palestinians. They're more than content to make this Israels and the Palestinians problem to solve, rightfully so, but if they'd had their way, there'd be no Israel and no Palestine, either.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652584#Comment_121652584

Israel is fighting for its survival

That, right there, is naivety in the context of what is happening today.

I strongly suspect you have no interest in peace in the Middle East and are OK with the status quo.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652874#Comment_121652874

Israel has peace with Egypt and Jordan.

Saudi peace was on the way before current events unfolded. It may still happen but Saudi requires a two state solution.

Don't forget, there's always two sides to a story. Israel is well able to give its neighbours a good kicking.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653411#Comment_121653411

Why do you think it's naive to say that Israel is fighting for its survival? There are currently nearly 100,000 Israelis who are internally displaced, from the northern border or from the zone around Gaza, with no idea of when or if they will be able to return safely.

Those are farming areas, so there will be effects on Israel's capacity to feed itself, so for that reason alone, it's a problem for the country. And that's without considering that if this new strategy of attacking civilians in their homes becomes widespread, ie if terror groups cased in the West Bank, Lebanon and Syria begin to use it too, most of Israel will become uninhabitable.

How can that not be an existential crisis?

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639026#Comment_121639026

it's not much of a leap from 'we are the chosen people' to 'we are the master race'.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653659#Comment_121653659

You don't understand what Chosen means in the context of Judiasm, but it's not to be better than others, just more adherent to their religion.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653411#Comment_121653411

The irony of the person blindly re-posting Hamas’ propaganda criticising others for having no interest in peace would be amusing were it not for the mounting death tolls in the war that Hamas started.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653765#Comment_121653765

And peace is more possible now with 30k Gazans dead, 10k of them Children? The irony of someone posting that Israel is interested in peace, based on those numbers. Hamas and Israel both seem uninterested in peace.