Will Andy Farrell get the adoration Jack Charlton got?

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121212224#Comment_121212224

Get ya. Big thing was ulster v leinster. No Munster in sight. Banbridge home and away.

Ardillaun

We are pitting two wonderful Englishmen against each other on this thread. Jack will be smiling at that. Why not be thankful for what they both achieved for Ireland? Yes, rugby is only played well by a tiny group of countries but bear in mind the prodigious size, speed and strength of our opponents from South Africa and the Pacific in a seriously physical sport and the sheer numbers England and France have to choose from. We are now up against New Zealand in the quarter final because of a criminally unjust draw. Despite being much better than ever, our quest may well end there. Them’s the breaks. Whatever happens, ta very much, Andy. I never doubted you apart from a long time after you were appointed.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121211864#Comment_121211864

i agree Farrell has to win or get to final

i dont agree with saying we have underachieved, in reality we are a small island with rugby as a low priority sport

in the last 20 years at province and international we have achieved great success and the only problem has been at World Cup level with a number of different reason meaning we get knocked out at qtrs

Injury is the biggest concern now, 2015 we lost 6 of the starting team, do that to NZ who won the competition and they would lose. We have 4-5 doubtful for next week. The teams that win the WC in previous years play the same 23 more or less from start to finish

just because you have depth doesn’t make a competition better FYI, playing loads of shite teams for longer still won’t change the top 5 teams who will always win it. Soccer is still the same few countries who will win competition. So hardly overflowing with great countries outside those few

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121212205#Comment_121212205

Yet the squad is full of players outside of those areas. Doris for instance who is one of the best in his position in the World is actually Mayo

Furlong, again World class is from?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121212224#Comment_121212224

"1 token Prod"

Really in this day & age that's the best you could come up with.

K-9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121212467#Comment_121212467

You should get onto Willie Anderson for being so unpc about his own religion and tell him to do better.

He did a great podcast with the GAA social on BBC NI, fascinating guy, great sense of humour and a great way of looking at life.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121212428#Comment_121212428

Doris?

Bad choice.

He may have been born in Mayo but he was educated in that bastion of south side rugby Blackrock College, the same school as his father played rugby with.

It's not as if he honed his skills in Mayo.

When rugby supporters are challenged about how the makeup of the Irish rugby team and espically the Leinster contingent is dominated by guys from fee paying schools they always throw out Furlong or Sean O'Brien as a counter argument, while ignoring the hundreds of others who went on to represent Ireland that came from fee paying schools.

It's obvious why Irish rugby doesn't have the same broad public interest that other sports have when the majority of international players come from such a elite section of society.

Who cares what school they went to, a big part of the support is as long as Ireland playing the'r watching, plus the matches are great.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121212556#Comment_121212556

Not really a bad choice, he was born in Mayo. He played rugby in Ballina.

As I already said rugby is 3/4th sport in Ireland, It is growing. More than a lot of people would like so these types of discussion are fired up all the time.

It's a team full, not all, of young Irish professional players. As a country we should be getting behind them

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121212556#Comment_121212556

It's as close to a fact as possible that if you have an athletic son and send him to a fee-paying school in Dublin then the likelihood of that son playing rugby for Ireland will explode exponentially.

Compare that to soccer, which is truly meritocratic. A child can grow up in abject poverty, with absolutely no connections but if they're good enough and all the necessary variables align (such as physical talent, football intelligence, resistance to injury, application/dedication, and more) then they will end up playing professionally and it won't matter which school they went to, who their parents were etc.

Rugby is not like this. Rugby is a sport developed by toffs, played by toffs. If you didn't go to the right school, you won't get a look in regardless of your talent.

Rugby is the definition of a closed shop. The only reasons it's so popular at the moment are that Ireland are doing well at the moment, and members of the media and marketing classes in Ireland went to the same schools as the stars of rugby so they're pushing it on the rest of us.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213052#Comment_121213052

Except for Limerick of course.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213052#Comment_121213052

100%

If the likes of Doris didn't have the opportunity and means to go to Blackrock and went to St Patrick's College, Laken Cross in north Mayo instead then no one would have heard of him.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213144#Comment_121213144

People really don't like to examine these facts, that rugby really is only a sport for a select few and the ordinary person supporting rugby is indulging the elites with their private little hobby. The great unwashed can look but you certainly can't touch.

There's been a shedload of propaganda over the years from various South County Dublin based marketing companies, or the South County Dublin based media, where Irish people are inundated with the false narrative that rugby is for everyone, it is representative of the population and more untruths. It's simply isn't true and genuinely I think it's sad when ordinary Irish people get swept up in rugby-mania.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213052#Comment_121213052

Yet players from all over Ireland are playing rugby. I suggest you look into the AIL.

Strazdas

Lots of (correct) discussion of the fact that people in working class areas have very little direct involvement in playing or watching rugby live, but I'd add that general interest in the national team is actually very high. TV ratings for the Irish games in the RWC are through the roof and beating everything else on TV out of sight this year.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213144#Comment_121213144

If, what, maybe.

If he was in Mayo he would have access to Connacht academy

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213138#Comment_121213138

Just like picking Furlong as the example that Leinster is not full of private school educated men, people pick Limerick as the example that rugby is a common mans game.

Rugby in Limerick city being a common mans game is like Furlong, the exception rather than the rule, it's an outlier.

One urban area in the whole country.

In the other city in the rugby province of Munster, Cork, it's certainly not the common mans game.

Stop picking single outlier examples to try and prove your point, because it doesn't work.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213205#Comment_121213205

Lots of clubs all over Ireland playing rugby at all levels, which area would you call a "working class area"?

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213208#Comment_121213208

And how many players from the Connacht academy have gone on to play international, relative to those that have gone to private schools that have played international?

You brought up Doris as an example and it's backfired on you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213213#Comment_121213213

It's just a sport and it is a bit of fun to follow It is not a life-and-death issue. I still contend an amount watch just because it's an Irish team they don't care or are not interested in where the players went to school.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213205#Comment_121213205

But that's all it is to the vast majority, a TV sport.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213205#Comment_121213205

If people from non traditional rugby areas want to get involved in rugby it's easy to do so, if they wish. I'll mention tallaght rfc again.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213234#Comment_121213234

How has it backfired? If Doris was playing for Connacht of course he would be playing for Ireland. He is one of the best players in the World in his position.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213245#Comment_121213245

But he would never have had the opportunity to develop as a player in Mayo.

The coaching in the private school system is what's made him the player he is today.

I'll take your word for it that he is the best in the world at his position, I've no idea where he plays.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121212425#Comment_121212425

Again I disagree with there are a lot of 'shite teams' in soccer (I know there is no Euros in Rugby) - Six Nations probably the nearest Rugby have.

But Greece won the Euros in 2004 and Portugal a coming team for a decade won the Euros in 2016, the Czech Republic created waves in Euro 96 Poborsky, they finished third I think. Ireland in Euro 88 when the competition was much smaller could have won it if they had a bit of luck. Denmark Euro 1992 shocked the world by winning the thing and they only got in because of the Yugoslav .

Then in the World Cups there are a lot of surprise teams that turn up in Soccer, Ireland/Cameroon 1990, Sweden//Nigeria 1994, . Croatia world Cup 1998, Saudi Arabia, Morocco 2022.

If it was easy for the 'shite teams' the current Irish soccer team would qualify for tournaments (which are expanded) but they don't.

In Rugby how many shocks are there - Japan and Argentina are the only two I can think of historically. Rugby is just the status quo really the Six Nations, plus southern Hemisphere SA, Australia, NZ and that is it. Fiji and Somoa's sole purpose in life just seems to be breeding grounds for the main nations to hoover up their players for their national sides. They have little hope of achieving anything of real note as long as this continues.

As a casual rugby watcher. I know enough just to watch the odd big pool match waiting for the QF in the Rugby where the real tournament starts. The Rugby world cup except for Fiji beating Australia has been very predictable. There was even talk of Australia heading for tier 2 - unheard of in Rugby. The status quo just does not fluctuate as in soccer. Turkey used to be the whipping boys in soccer 30 years ago for example, but now are a completely different prospect. Turkey ranked as high as fifth in the world in 2004, they were as low as 67th in 1993. Turkey has produced football stars to the level of Hakan Suker etc

But because of the nature of the sport of Rugby teams that are better than other teams by a distance invariably hammer them. How many Turkey's are there is Rugby? Would Portugal or Goorgia become a tier 1 nation any time soon?

--

So to me Farrell can be judged from the QF's onwards that is where as Shane Horgan said "The time is now. it is now or never". The implication was clear Ireland should be winning the thing this year, the time for excuses is over. The team is in form, the defence is great and seems to be oozing confidence but not in a cocky way.

But on the other hand, this thread will look very silly and won't age well if NZ beat Ireland. It would be another in a long line of Ireland failures at Rugby world cups

I don't know much about Farrell's personality, but to me he does not have the personality to match 'Big Jack'. Jack Charlton's surname was not even needed in conversation. If anyone saw "Finding Jack Charlton" documentary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIlni32Pm_4

People would get a flavour of what a big personality Jack was. Farrell does not seem to have a patch on Charlton just by personality alone.

Hear is a documentary about Jack back in Newcastle from 1971

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NlnXq0QmLM

Completely at ease with the camera and talking to people.

Here is he is again in the 70's with his TV series Jack's Game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDBR4mBhCsA

Where he went shooting with a man from a completely different background to him, but again he was at ease comfortable.

Andy Farrell would never to be able to reach this sort of 'Everyman' level that Charlton reached. As Giles said Charlton could be stubborn but very funny. Paul McGrath looked on him as a father figure, who helped him through his personal problems as best he could.

It is almost unfair and impossible for Farrell to live up to Big Jack's personality. That was a major part why Jack was adored.

Then there was the crowds after Italia 90 for the homecoming. Unprecedented Ireland celebrated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Aj6A5_XBMI

The Irish soccer team even upstaged Nelson Mandela!

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20251898.html

Farrell has a tough act to follow, the time is now.......

Edit - Sweden 1994 not Romania. Got my colours mixed up. Also forgot Cameroon 1990z

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213237#Comment_121213237

You could certainly make the same point about soccer in Ireland though. Attendance at LOI games is terrible in the main.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213263#Comment_121213263

Not sure why we need the love in for Jack? everyone knows why the irish people liked him. Nobody is trying to disparage him

He was a gruff no nonsense English Northern which sat well with the people of Ireland.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213256#Comment_121213256

Connacht have an excellent coaching system but coaching is only part of what makes these players great. Plenty of players in any coaching system will fail for multiple reasons as with any sport.

As I said already he was playing rugby in Ballina and the basic of rugby are thought at the mini levels. That is when the hard work is done by volunteers. Same in all sport.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213323#Comment_121213323

This is exactly the point, there will never be a 'love in' for Farrell. Farrell does not have 'IT'. Even if Farrell gets to a final or win's the Rugby WC it is a 'might' whether he gets the same adoration Charlton got.

At one stage in Ireland for some of a certain generation it was pictures of The Pope, JFK and Jack Charlton.

There was a story of Charlton fishing on the Moy in Mayo. A crowd of people gathered on a bridge to watch him fishing. The Garda had to wade into the river to inform Jack to move as he was creating a commotion unknown to him.

Would Farrell do the likes of that? Casually fishing in the Moy while oblivious to the fact he was drawing a crowd. It is different level stuff, when it comes to Jack Charlton.

noc1980

Italia 90 is the most overrated 'achievement' in history.

The only team to ever reach a QF without winning a game.

Farrell reaching the RWC QF having beaten the world champs and world #5 is already a superior achievement.

As for soccer being more competitive than rugby. It isn't. 2nd rate 'minnow' sides can put 11 men in their own half and hang in there to reach a penalty shootout, can't do that in rugby.

Italia 90 won't be matched in terms of attention, hype and party atmosphere but it was the only show in town, if it was today in the social media age it wouldn't have registered as anything close to an 'achievement'

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213369#Comment_121213369

Sorry I laid the trap and you walked straight into it. Do you know what most people would describe Farrell as?

A gruff no nonsense English northern.

Ireland has moved on from the 90's, we had no real stars then, plus everyone lived in England that we would class as famous.

Andy lives in Dublin

fergiesfolly

Just on the closed shop for rugby point some are making.

That can happen in GAA. If you're a worldie hurler from Cavan, you're not likely to come within an asses roar of an All Ireland medal, or even a final. Same can be said for a footballer in Kilkenny.

I knew loads of talented soccer players that were overlooked because the other kid was from the right housing estate or his dad was mates with the coach. Killed off any chance they had before they even got started.

Definitely, rugby is set up in such a way that most of the talent ( but not all) comes from the upper middle classes.

But the other sports aren't universally open either.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121212428#Comment_121212428

Rarities though not very common, the Rugby crowd is by and large a different demographic to the masses, in Dublin it is East Dublin basically along the Dart line for example. There is the odd exception in Rugby such as Trevor Brennan known as the 'Milkman'.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213431#Comment_121213431

Again as I said to someone else you should look into the AIL

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213439#Comment_121213439

The heads in Munster, Cork Con/Shannon etc. Munster is the exception massive cross over in all sports in Munster only have to look at Limerick - Football, Soccer Hurling Rugby. But for most of Ireland Rugby does not really 'grab' all communities it is very niche. Nevermind a nation. It is part of the reason Charlton managed it, he transcended the sport itself. Farrell has some job to turn that around.

Given where Rugby fits in the sporting hierarchy in Ireland, and the perception that some have that it is a sport for privately educated posh boys (rightly/wrongly). It is going to be extremely hard for Farrell to get that nationwide adoration Charlton received.

K-9

Italia 90 was just a shyte tournament though. They got rid of the back pass to the keeper after that, keepers can't pick it up when a defender passes it back to them. They got rid of the third team out of 4 qualifying out of the group after that to.

England nearly got to the final that year too. Argentina with Maradonna in the shape he was in did get to it.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213391#Comment_121213391

As for soccer being more competitive than rugby. It isn't. 2nd rate 'minnow' sides can put 11 men in their own half and hang in there to reach a penalty shootout, can't do that in rugby.

"Soccer isn't more competitive, it's just easier for smaller teams to compete with the big boys....y'know, the dictionary definition of the word competitive"

😀

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213497#Comment_121213497

Again you are trying to compare Charlton and Farrell. Carlton was 30 years ago and Ireland has changed massively in that period.

Rugby as I said is growing, the perception held by people who complain about it I find is based on rugby in the 90's. Has nothing to do with the sport today. Just look at this thread with people going on about "prods" etc.

The kids playing rugby now and will be the future of Ireland have none of these hang up or perceptions.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213403#Comment_121213403

No trap at all it actually proves my point more-so

Which according to the premise of this thread, can Farrell get the same adoration as Charlton?

Would the average man on street know who Farrell is to be honest? Would they even care? This is in age unlike Charlton's time where info can be found at the push of a button. But still Farrell would be unknown or at best half known in my parts of Ireland. He does not have a Jack Charlton profile of personalty.

Rugby is a different world in Ireland. Bubbles of interest. I remember going to a Rugby match in the AVIVA. There was big club GAA matches on the same day Semi Finals. Could not find a place that showed before the Ireland game. Instead they had England Italy on all the televisions/big screen (6 Nations). I was shocked.

And the further you got away from Dublin 4 the less the casual person on the street would know there was a Rugby match on. I learnt my lesson the next time a GAA match clashed with a Rugby one. I tore off afterwards to a city centre 'rustic' northside pub that I knew would be showing the league final between Dublin and Kerry. It was on the same day as Ireland played England in the AVIVA.

So with all this division and clique type stuff Rugby has it makes Farrell's task of Charlton adoration, ether extremely difficult or virtually impossible.In my opinion.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213479#Comment_121213479

In rugby, the better side nearly always wins. It's more of a team game, and scores are much higher. It would be a poor game if only one try was scored but that's par for the course in soccer.

Nil all, one nil games are common and one world-class striker can elevate an entire team.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213571#Comment_121213571

You are taking it from the angle Farrell will replace Charlton. Nobody is suggesting that. Based on the millions watching the rugby and thousands going to France I would expect they do know who Farrell is

Next time, go into the pub, ask the barman to stick on the GAA game and they will stick it on or tell you go watch it in the bar etc. I don't see what relevance a game on TV has? most bars will stick on what the first person asks for.

I was at a rugby game and walked out into Sandymount hotel and watched the GAA once. Yes the big screen had the rugby on but it was on in another TV room

bucketybuck

Look at that famous video posted earlier showing the celebrations on the Walkinstown roundabout after the Romania game. Hundreds of people delighted with life and celebrating wildly.

Simply wouldn't happen today. Today, it would be a few people celebrating and 90% of the crowd with their phones out taking shite videos of the "celebrations".

Its no longer about Ireland winning, it is about something happening that dickheads can post on social media. Its shallow as hell and is the reason why people don't care deeply about what the achievement actually is. And in turn is why Farrell can never have the connection that Charlton had.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213575#Comment_121213575

In any sport the better side nearly always wins. Thats why it's called an upset and you have the underdog.

A striker is only as good as the winger who can cross or the midfielder who can pass the ball to him. Hence why they are team sports

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213591#Comment_121213591

That doesn't at all disprove what he said.

A top player quite clearly elevates a team, of course he does and there are many many examples of it happening. Just because one team are still poor even with that elevation doesn't change the fact. Nobody ever said having a world class player immediately makes them world cup winners.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121207620#Comment_121207620

"tournament played at an elite level by a handful of teams"

Unlike the soccer world cup that has had 8 winners out of 22 tournaments you mean?

Rugby has 4 out of 9.

I'd say its more about him getting us to #1 in the world?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213619#Comment_121213619

A lot of people in Ireland in the 90's onky had RTE. Sky Sports etc was not around, no internet etc.

You can't compare, in reality if 1990 happened now the majority of those people would be on boards arguing over something that happened in the game and not on the streets.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213637#Comment_121213637

Yes, that was the whole point. Its why Farrell cannot have the same impact.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213619#Comment_121213619

Maybe that's the answer. Jack had charisma and presence enough for the Irish people to build a cult of personality around him, in a time where there were few other contenders.

Farrell doesn't have that. He's not on the Late Late, not on the radio, not doing anything pop-culture enough to expose him to the general public. Plus, people have more distractions to pull the lime light away from him.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213565#Comment_121213565

The comparison between Farrell and Charlton is what this thread is about!!!!! 😀

The question the OP posits is would Farrell recieve the same adoration Charlton received I think the answer is simply NO -

Why?

1) Charlton's personality - larger than life transcending the sport - the little old dears suddenly were wondering if McGrath was playing in midfield or defence

2) The difficulty of the sport of soccer in comparison to Rugby - a true global concern

3) The lack of previous sporting international success Ireland had in Charlton's time

4) The downtrodden nature of Ireland at the time etc - dreary 1980's recession hit Ireland - mass emigration and unemployment etc

--

In contrast to now -

1) Ireland is now more upwardly mobile more educated - there is less of need for a 'saviour' like Charlton to take their minds off the grind of daily life is not there

2) People involved in Rugby - are certainly not of the downtrodden demographic - they don't need to look to be 'lifted'

3) But there are still whole communities in Ireland that are untouched by Rugby. It is viewed as 'other' in such places

4) I don't think Farrell has the personality to transcend his sport - to be 'loved' in Ireland like Charlton

--

Your point about Rugby growing is a complete irrelevance to the question would Farrell get the same adoration Charlton received. In you going on the more general point about Rugby, it proves Farrell has the impossible task to get the Charlton levels of adoration, in my opinion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213657#Comment_121213657

I agree with your overall post - totally different sports in totally different eras - but Farrell is surprisingly charismatic.

That being said, anything less than reaching the final is a disaster for this Irish team.