Israel-Gaza: 'We are at war', says Benjamin Netanyahu

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911440#Comment_121911440

Is thieving Palestinian farmland and homes on the West Bank and giving the Greenlight to Far Right Zionist thugs to murder and thieve under the protection of the IDF your version of "Holding out the Hand of Peace"??

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913926#Comment_121913926

Thats the thing isn't it. There is bad on both sides.

But always shifting it to one side to suit ones personal opinion/agenda is completely the wrong thing to do. It doesn't achieve anything except trolling, abuse and discrimination.

The hand of peace was offered by removing settlers from Gaza to facilitate the return of the Palestinians to that land. And that hand of peace was eventually slapped back in Israel's face with indiscriminate rocket fire over the last decade and October 7th atrocities.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913856#Comment_121913856

You’ve gone from one post full of wishful thinking to the next post full of despair. We need the international community, the Americans and the EU to be the adults in the room. The old carrot and stick approach. Incentivise Palestinians to not elect hardliners like Hamas, same with Israelis but that’s not been happening.

Israel turned Gaza into an open prison causing resentment and anger and Palestinians to look to hardline responses. The situation was just ignored. Israel should have faced rebuke from the international community like South Africa did under Apartheid. They should be facing boycott for bad behaviour and incentives for better behaviour. Instead they’re welcomed into European culture and sport, the opposite should be happening until they’re prepared to try to find peaceful solutions. Palestinians may make noises about wanting all the land of Israel but they’re being offered no carrot to accept less. As bad as Biden has been if he loses the next election then you’ll have further reason to despair.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914060#Comment_121914060

When was this “ hand of peace” last proffered exactly?

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914092#Comment_121914092

One can only hope for the impossible and that is Biden to win the election. Biden is weak but Trump will provide Netanyahu with free reign. It's all very worrying.

I suppose we all have hope for a peaceful solution but we despair because deep down, we all know there is extremely slim to no chance of a peace. Innocent people will just continue to suffer and children of tomorrow will ultimately always pay the price for our failures of today.

The comparison to an 'open air prison' is false. Although, there were limitations on people and goods coming from/to Gaza, this was required when fighting an entity such as Hamas (in my opinion). It was the nature of the beast Israel were fighting. Israel priority is the security of their own citizens so trying to to live with a terror entity on their doorstep was/is very challenging. Especially, when the world will always blame Israel for any poor quality of life Gazans experience but give Hamas a free pass. Considering the billions that has been provided in aid and spent on a terror machine, not the people it was intended for.

Any country in the world would put same limitations if they effectively had an ISIS existing on their border with the intention to kill as many of their civilians as possible.

As I said earlier, there is no level playing field.

It seems Israel are expected to care more for the Gazans than their own governing entity do. If Hamas really cared for their own people, release the hostages. Stop the bloodshed amd hunger. Surrender yourselves.

I believe Israel do fight according to international law. You might ridicule that opinion, but I truly do. If Hamas uses hospitals, schools, mosques and UN facilities to store and fire weapons then Hamas have effectively made these buildings a legitimate target, according to international law. I also believe Israel has a lot of intelligence to counter any arguments re illegal war crimes. They just choose not to show the worldwide public.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911440#Comment_121911440

Not going to happen because Israel will never give the Palestinians respect. Nor will they remove the illegal settlers from the West Bank and return the lands to the rightful owners. Israel has no intention of treating the Palestinians in a proper manner. That's why Oct 7th happened.

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914256#Comment_121914256

The west bank is definitely a flash point and a complete failure in Israeli policy.

Gaza as a test case has failed miserably. But PA certainly look like they could potentially be a partner in peace in West Bank.

Israeli public in general do respect the Palestinians and want a peace. Most are also willing to relinquish land in order to obtain peace. The current government not so much and the settlers - not at all.

We need new leadership in Israel and the eradication of Hamas. What happens next is up to the powers that be.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914250#Comment_121914250

You sound like an Israeli government spokesperson. You talk a lot about peace etc but the mask slips when you refute phrases like “open air prison” which it is and has been and earlier a few pages ago you denied that the Israeli government and IDF are committing “genocide” in Gaza. They are and you denying it is deeply disingenuous and is akin to someone attempting to be a holocaust denier.

No one is giving Hamas “a free pass” and your last paragraph; really why would Israel choose not to show the world intelligence that they may have that would counter arguments re war crimes. Poor stuff.

Iscreamkone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914613#Comment_121914613

Anyone who isn’t calling for a Hamas/Palestine surrender is giving them a “free pass” and is on their side in my opinion.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914702#Comment_121914702

The use of the word surrender seems needlessly aggressive.

I’d be in favour of a ceasefire across the board and in time with support from the international community that more moderate elements would take over on both sides. I’m certainly not on Hamas’ side, no one can justify October 7th in my opinion but the disproportionate response from Israel since then is also entirely unjustified. However some people seem willing to try very hard to justify the disproportionate response from Israeli forces since then.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911440#Comment_121911440

You'd have to explain when Israel held out the "hand of peace", as a brief reading of history will show that all they ever have done is rob more land from Palestinians, lock up & torture more Palestinians, kill more Palestinians ...

Any time the Palestinians have tried to act reasonably Israel has spat in their face. Every "negotiation" was simply for window dressing, and always intended to get the Palestinian leadership on the back foot, ably aided by the USA, and as we have seen recently, by Scholz. Who by the way has given Israel carte blanche to murder every Palestinian they want to (while apparently trying to re-establish the third reich, by stealth rather than by force of arms - consider the map of Europe under the Nazis with a map of the EU today).

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914755#Comment_121914755

It's just a reworked version of George Bush's comment regarding the 2nd Iraq war - if you're not with us, you're against us.

The Israelis don't seem to realise that almost the whole world is now against Israel, since they took their mask off, and that whatever Hamas did back in October has been superseded absolutely by Israel's actions since.

But locally they remain top dog, so they have not yet understood the implications of what they are doing. IMO, they are self-destructing without realising it, while thinking they are teaching the Palestinians a lesson - giving them, to use Thatcher's phrase, a 'short sharp shock'.

The Israelis seem to still think that this is a repeat of 2009 and 2014, which were two vicious assaults on the Palestinians. Since then the international scene has changed radically, and the USA has rivals in several fields - China now has the world's largest productive economy; Russia has de-dollarised to a large extent, as have several other countries; the BRICS is a consolidated and growing entity. US hegemony is being challenged in every field, while the Afghanistan and Iraq wars have shown that its military is not capable of taking on a well-prepared enemy in the field, and as a result it is of limited use to Israel.

None of this is any consolation to the Palestinians of course, but Israel would do well to review their position in the world going forward in view of the USA losing its pre-eminent position in world affairs.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914950#Comment_121914950

I prefer George snr comment re Iraq War 1, when he said “this aggression will not stand”. I only remember that because of The Big Lebowski.

It’s been said since October 7th that this is exactly the response that Hamas wanted. They were willing to put Palestinian people’s lives at stake, to draw out this response from Nethanyahu who I believe was partially responsible for Hamas coming to power in Gaza IIRC. China, Russia and others know that this conflict is one that what was called “the west” are divided on.

The plight of the people in Gaza is horrendous. There is no excuse for the Israeli offensive and I’d go back to my first point on this that they should face the same type of sanctions that Apartheid South Africa felt which pressurised them into finding a more humane solution to their problems. Sanctions and ostracism re cultural and sporting relations. It worked in improving the way South Africa as a country acted it will work with Israel.

Iscreamkone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914755#Comment_121914755

Needlessly aggressive? Are you serious?

If you are not for a surrender then you are pro Hamas. A ceasefire without a surrender is a Victory for Hamas.

A ceasefire without a surrender will encourage Palestinian terrorists to repeat October 7th attacks in the future.

No ceasefire without a surrender and release of the hostages.

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914613#Comment_121914613

I can be a supporter of Israel and it's right to exist and defend itself while also recognising the plight of the Palestinians.

Ultimately, peace is the only answer.

I don't believe Gaza was an open air prison and I've explained my reasons. I also do not believe Israel is wholly to blame for the huge loss of life in Gaza, or that a genocide is being committed.

For there to be a genocide, one must prove the IDF are specifically targeting civilians. They are not. The IDF are targeting terrorists, arms storage facilities and launch sites. If Hamas are hiding, storing or launching from, in or near a hospital, school, place of worship or a U.N facility, it is them who are not adhering to international law and it is them who have made that place a legitimate military target. That is the law.

If Hamas build tunnels to hide in under a civilian population, Israel have every right to destroy those tunnels. That is the law.

Hamas are fighting a war in a way I've not seen in my lifetime. Cowardice comes to mind. The IRA for all their faults, never hid behind, within or below women and children to maximize the death toll and use their deaths as part of a strategy to garner international support and condemnation of the enemy. This is exactly what I'm seeing unfold in Gaza.

Hamas can end this tonight. The only entity with the power to end this tonight is Hamas. No civilised person can ask Israel to retreat and ceasefire while Hamas are still holding 132 of their innocent civilians against their will.

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914821#Comment_121914821

You will have to remind me when the Palestinians have acted reasonably.

Clinton said himself, Arafat refused everything and was not willing to negotiate during peace talks at Camp David.

There has been countless suicide bombings on buses, nightclubs and restaurants, countless lone wolf attacks using cars as weapons or just randomly stabbing people in the street. Hezbollah and Hamas rocket attacks from both Southern and Northern borders too..

Add to this the 7 wars Israel has had to defend itself against multiple Arab countries during last 80 years.

Most Palestinians still call for the destruction of Israel as a whole.. 'From the River to the Sea'.

Looking through the lens of history, reasonable hasn't really been part of the Palestinian vocabulary.

Good loser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915150#Comment_121915150

You say 'No civilised person can ask Israel to retreat and ceasefire etc etc. I can and do ask Israel to do that. And I am as civilised as you are.The war cabinet in Israel have stated more than once that the release of the hostages will NOT halt their genocide in Gaza. They intend continuing whether or not the hostages are released. Only Israel can stop the fighting instantly. Lord knows surely their revenge/blood lust/desire fro punishment has been satiated by now. They will never undo the hatred their behaviour has engendered worldwide amongst reasonable people.

In the scenario you project the killing of the hostages by Hamas would end the assault. Does Bibi want that?

GeminiLad

In

GeminiLad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915345#Comment_121915345

I'd argue that you are not a civilised person. If you were you would understand, what Hamas perpetrated on October 7th was a turning point in this decade long conflict. It was heinous in the extreme, brutality the likes of which the world has not witnessed since the medieval ages. And if that was your mother/father/son/daughter/sibling being held in Gaza, you would do whatever it takes to get them home.

Many may disagree with how Israel are going about it, but Hamas would never negotiate on a level playing field without force, a 'noose' around their neck if you will. Which is why Hamas only hope is the international outcry and pressure on governments from around the world to call a ceasefire.

Let me spell it out: A ceasefire without hostage release is an Israeli surrender.

That cannot be allowed to happen after what we all witnessed on Oct 7th.

Of course, Hamas need to surrender too. If South Africa have referred Israel to the ICJ then it is obvious to one and all the perpetrators of October 7th are war criminals. They all are. As I've explained above, holding hostages, storing weapons and launching attacks from/within hospitals/schools and mosques is a war crime in itself.

Anybody who supports or 'understands' why children were burned to death or women were gang raped with their breasts cut off and then shot in the head while still being raped and corpses violated strewn across roads and communities does not have an ounce of compassion or is civilised. They show it openly for the Palestinians but nothing for those poor souls who perished in the most inhumane and undignified manner on October 7th. Gang rape and the burning of children is NOT resistance.

So yes, you definitely need to recalibrate your moral compass.

TheCitizen

And so the mask slips even further.

Anyway an anti Israel Apartheid movement needs to be mobilised for the sake of the people of Israel as much as the people of Gaza and the West Bank.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915110#Comment_121915110

If you’re seriously interested in a lasting peace settlement then you won’t be getting hung up on words like “surrender”. Releasing the hostages would be part of a ceasefire arrangement. Your use of that word reveals that you’re not serious about a workable peace agreement and process. That failed mindset is the root cause of the problem.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915110#Comment_121915110

Rubbish. Hamas numbers will be much bigger in the future because of Israeli actions. Their future is secured for sure. Constantly bullying and murdering will not make a people love you or respect you. Looks like Israel has much more to learn than Hamas has but again they are two cheeks of the same arse. None better than the other.

Iscreamkone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121917770#Comment_121917770

Haha! I don’t think Israel are looking for love or respect from the Palestinian terrorists.

What Israel needs to do is to put the terrorists in a position that they can’t or at the very least are afraid to attempt another Oct 7th event ever.

TheCitizen

Nethanyahu at loggerheads with Biden now over moving into to Rafah before evacuations. Even the USA can’t countenance their carry on any longer.

This Israeli regime is a completely rogue state yet their cheerleaders on here still keep on cheering. Shame on them. Utterly disgraceful and uncivilised support for uncivilised and entirely reprehensible behaviour.

TheCitizen

Not sure if this is off topic for this thread but good to see that progressive Jewish people are defending Jonathon Glazer.

https://amp.theguardian.com/film/2024/mar/20/jonathan-glazer-speech-jewish-groups-defense

Castlekeeper

You'd wonder what was the thinking behind foisting the poor Jews out on the poorer Palestinians in the first place. They might have been Jews but they weren't middle Eastern. It'd be like taking the Catholics burnt out of Belfast and landing them in some part of Rome.

It was a European issue and and why did certain governments want to remove the Jews from Europe post WWII. Why didn't the US put up it's hand seeing as they've been so keen to pull the strings ever since.

Colonialism without assimilation doesn't seem to work.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915106#Comment_121915106

Yes, I agree with the last paragraph.

BDS is an important element in the struggle against the apartheid state of Israel. I always check to see if a product I'm buying is made in Israel, and if it is, I will only buy if a) there is absolutely alternative and b) unless I absolutely need it. I never knowingly buy anything from Israel on a whim.

(Cue: hasbara jumps in to talk about my mobile phone or my computer, crowing about parts maybe being made in Israel. Obviously I cannot take a product apart before buying it to check, but most are made in China and most components come from China or Taiwan these days).

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915173#Comment_121915173

Clinton was bought and paid for, so anything he said on the matter is not worth listening to.

Israel has been targeting Palestinians for over 100 years now, it's hardly a surprise that they they fight back with whatever means are at hand. I can't remember them blowing up one hospital after another, leaving babies to die in incubators, and targeting people going to mass though.

You or some other Pro-israel poster will probably come on with a list of Palestinian atrocities to "prove" your point.

Let me tell you, the list of Zionist atrocities is multiple times longer, and far, far more horrific.

As for other Arab countries coming to the Palestinians aid, I can only praise their actions - but have you forgotten how France and Britain were Israeli allies in the 1956 war? Or have you forgotten that most of Israel's weapons and munitions come from the USA? They could not carry out their slaughter without the massive foreign aid they receive.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121919082#Comment_121919082

Israel is getting no respect from any quarter now. Every country knows the face of a genocidal nation. Their economy is heading downwards on a steep curve too. It is a pariah state. Guaranteed another Oct 7th because of the enemies it is making.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121919240#Comment_121919240

Their cheerleaders are useful idiots for the rogue state.