"I started a joke, that started the whole world ......" | Ireland v New Zealand.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262508#Comment_121262508

Close it seems, as the All Black fans here seem to be delighted beating Ireland the last day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnzvIYR1UA8

Most NZ supporters seemed surprised/relieved they managed the win.

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I think it has something to do with mindsets, for most Irish rugby fans the bar was much lower historically than going beyond the QF's of a WC. The focus was on a grand slam in the 6N, or a test series victory against the All Blacks.

Hopefully in future Irish rugby fans will realise the Rugby world cup is where it is at. This has been NZ's focus. It always has been the World Cup in their minds. Their 'famine' from 1987 - 2011 really stung them. The WC is not an easy tournament to win even for the best in the world, it is a knockout tournament after all.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262508#Comment_121262508

One of the two -SA or NZ (if they make it) are not going to 'peak' at the right time Awec. That's knockout competitions for you.

When exactly do you 'peak'? The final? Or the QF, in which case you are descending as either SA or NZ will now, because somebody has to win it.

I don't think you can 'peak' for one game.

I don't see any other option but to do the same again, arrive at the tournament in our best possible shape and take it from there. It may just be as simple as, 'try again, fail again, fail better.'

Is there a case to be made for not over-complicating or over-thinking it?

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262537#Comment_121262537

Unless you're really, really lucky with the draw (like England) then it's the knockout games when you're going to have to really be in tip-top condition. Coming out of the pools, you need to be stepping it up. NZ and SA both stepped it up, I don't think we can say the same. We appeared to be caught off caught by the first 20 mins of the game, as if we weren't expecting it.

But these are 2 teams with lots of experience of going far in this tournament, they know how to shrug off pool stage defeats, they know that in any RWC the 3 most important games are the last 3. They know what the approach needs to be to maximise the chances that the players turn up for these big knockout games.

We've definitely got a lot better here, in previous RWCs we've completely emptied the tank in the pool stages. We're better but IMO not quite there yet.

This is why I'd love us to bring someone in who has been there and done it. Like Felix Jones (just a random name, not suggesting he'd be interested) I'm sure would have loads of insights into how SA approached their run of fixtures, given it was very similar to ours. What did they say to the players before and after the Ireland game? How did they prepare before the Ireland game? Did they talk the game up? Did they talk the game down? Did they change how they ran training once the pools were over? Did the message change, did the way the message was delivered change etc?

How did that compare to our approach?

As I said before, Mike Catt is the only person involved in Irish Rugby who has any experience whatsoever of getting the job done at a RWC, and his experience was over 20 years ago. This has bound to have an impact.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262689#Comment_121262689

You didn't address the point that only one team at a world cup 'peaks' correctly or can 'peak' correctly.

I agree that we probably should have more confidence in the squad rather than the team and rotate more. But in a group like ours that could catch you out too.

. They brought in Keane and Harrington, maybe others, to talk about the winning mentality thing, so they were doing some work on that.

I honestly, a week away from the defeat, don't think there is much more to be done than what we did, just do it a bit better next time.

ednwireland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262689#Comment_121262689

Really really lucky like England with the draw. Yeh that draw had nothing to do with getting to a final last time.

Ireland's draw had everything to do with getting knocked out at the QF stage again.

I

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262387#Comment_121262387

I agree, generally speaking the Irish team isn't that consistent. The last 24 months have very much been the exception to the rule. But the reality we don't produce enough good rugby players to consistently produce excellent results.

I thinknthe subtler things are the mentality and the culture around Irish rugby. Someone posted here before, we view world cups as a additional extra and we make 6 nations a priority. Most other top nations do the opposite. Our club system is a god send in terms of allowing the national team do as well as possible. We'd be in terrible shape if our club system mirrored France or England.

Until we start shifting our focus to winning a world cup I don't think much will change.

tobefrank321

To be honest, the tournament and defeat to NZ did expose a couple of flaws that have been papered over.

Strength in depth. If you take Aki, Lowe, Hansen and Gibson Park out what are you left with in the backs? Why aren't we producing world class backs/wingers domestically that can start Ireland games?

Questions over Porter's scrummaging, never really addressed. Again we fell down on the fine margins.

Tiredness/fatigue when it came to knockout stages.

Lineout very patchy. Good enough for 6nations, nowhere good enough for big WC games.

Several more I'd say.

Our comfort zone is the 6 nations and high profile test series. World Cup is not our comfort zone.

Strength in depth...back to this...honestly, how good is it really...it plays a massive part in a World Cup.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121264726#Comment_121264726

Why is Hansen always listed with the others. He's been eligible for Ireland since Birth.

We dont need to produce "world class" backs. theres very few of them..

Porter has got away with plenty of that style of scrummaging which is partily a reason why it hasnt changed.

There was plenty of criticism here/in the media of our lineout in the 6nations and well before this world cup. its far from good enough for that and not for the world cup.

Tommysocks11

Our style of play is very attritional too as we have to work so hard for every score through phases as our backs wouldn't be flyers or as creative as the new Zealand backs or the French or SA for instance therefore we rely on forward line gains more which invariably fatigues our pack more so therefore we struggle more in the basics like set pieces due to tiredness

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121264726#Comment_121264726

Lineout very patchy. Good enough for 6nations, nowhere good enough for big WC games.

I'm sorry, but this kind of phrasing is so silly. It was not a case of the same lineout that was good enough for the 6N but suddenly wasn't good enough for this higher level. Our lineout in the World Cup (and indeed the warmups) was just worse than it was in the 6N. This current lineout also would struggle in the 6N. The lineout didn't collapse under the mental struggles of the heights of a knockout game against Samoa, there was just something fundamentally not working.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121264752#Comment_121264752

Believe me, I am a huge fan of the 4 players I mentioned. My point is who do we have to challenge/replace them?

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121264765#Comment_121264765

Come on. A lot of teams don't even bother competing in the line out. But SA and NZ do and effectively. Put any sort of pressure on our line out and it crumbles.

Thats the difference between WC and 6N. Much more pressure on everything...line out, scrum, etc

So yes we have a mediocre line out. We can win the 6nations with it, but certainly not a WC.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121264726#Comment_121264726

We have more dynamic and pacey wingers, they just haven't fit or been capable of playing the style of game that Farrell wants. I hope to see them given more opportunities in the coming season

luckyboy

Would be interested in views on this: would it be worth Ireland prioritising swifter (even if less rounded) wingers, like the Craig Gilroys or the Robert Balacounes of this world? And scoring our tries in more direct manner, with less phases required. Which would give our forwards a bit of a break. And then compensating for the deficiencies elsewhere? So basically making the calculation to go with the speedsters?

thebaz

As much as I'd love to see Ireland win a knockout game and get into a semi, its preferable to a semi surrender like tonight - the Redemption has begun - I'd sacrifice 6 Nations 2027 and even 2026 to have a quality WC , with a proper draw and the players coming through Im even optimistic.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121265345#Comment_121265345

I'd sacrifice 6 Nations 2027 and even 2026 to have a quality WC 

That's not how it works. It's not a Faustian pact.

thebaz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121265352#Comment_121265352

If it means trying out new moves and experimenting with team selection , thats what I'd do .

Not having an alternative to vanderFlier was a huge mistake , he was gassed by end of campaign

funkey_monkey

I watched the game but didn't really follow the media.

Were we really going around saying that we would win it? Reading some media since the game it seems quite a few were glad we got put out.

rolling boh

Doubt we would ever just regard the six nations as a chance to build for a WC .We seem to take every game even against vastly inferior teams very seriously.

thebaz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121265410#Comment_121265410

and perhaps thats the problem, yes take the game seriously but in a WC year experiment with selection, certainly against weaker teams , to build a squad that can be relied on for WC , and players like VanderFlier and Furlong can be rested and fresh for the big games.. Thers not much wrong with Irish rugby, but we still have not won a knockout game in 12 World cups, a few tweaks and that can be rectified.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121265337#Comment_121265337

I thought Baloucoune was discarded too quickly. If you have a player with his sort of game breaking ability, you need to get him the ball in space. He had a fine game against SA I thought, and went looking for work reasonably well. You don't take a Ferrari and ask it to be Land Rover.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121265456#Comment_121265456

But, why?

Does anyone really think there was someone outside the 23 that took the field on Saturday that should have been there if only they had more gametime in the 6N? The choice to not rotate for the Romania and Tonga games was a deliberate choice to use them as the warm up matches. Personally I think it contributed to the performance against Scotland and think it was relatively irrelevant to the quarter final but it had precisely nothing to do with the 6N.

tobefrank321

I can't help but think of Irelands bad luck at the hands of the idiots who decided the seeding for this world cup. Ireland couldn't have had a better run into this WC, peaking at number 1 in the build up. And the reward for this is to be lumped into a side of the draw with NZ, SA and France because seeding was decided years ago. While England, Argentina and Wales get a handy draw despite having a poor run in.

If we learn nothing else its being a top seed is critical for the next world cup, whenever that seeding is determined.

Podge_irl

If we had beaten NZ this would all be academic. The draw only annoys me insofar as it stopped us overcoming the stupid QF hoodoo mess, beyond that it is irrelevant to winning the World Cup which was our aim.

The QF issue does very much annoy me though.

thebaz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121265468#Comment_121265468

I would have given Penney a go against Italy , not having an alternative 7 was a huge issue to me .

Van der Fleir world player of the year , superb player , but he was over used and ther was no alternative.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121265456#Comment_121265456

10 World Cups! Lets not make it seem worse than it is!

rolling boh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121265456#Comment_121265456

Can't say I know anything about rugby but even when we hammer a vastly inferior team I hear the pundits analysis and its so serious about how good we were with generally just a token acknowledgement about the quality of the opposition.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121265514#Comment_121265514

Equally, it is a limited squad and Penney was never going to make it. Vdf didn't even start every game.

I would say the main problem in the backrow was bringing an injured Conan but it appears he had a setback after squad selection.

tobefrank321

Its almost laughable that people are saying this is NZ's worst ever team. Sure they had a few slip ups but they are still a very good team who have proved themselves time and time again. I would not be surprised if they won the World Cup.

FrancieBrady

That made me feel a lot better. A NZ YouTuber I watch just started this weeks vid watching the final moments of our game live. His relief and his awe that we put so many phases together makes me feel better.

Its important we don’t wreck were we are at by kneejerk reactions