"I started a joke, that started the whole world ......" | Ireland v New Zealand.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121273719#Comment_121273719

You're saying that none of this had to do with rotation, if Sexton didn't play against Scotland he would obviously be fresher for a 80 minute game v NZ. I certainly think the lack of rotation was a contributory factor to us losing the QF. We had a panel of 33 for the RWC, Farrell used that to bring injured players to the RWC or keep injured players and therefore he had less options at rotation.

You seem to think I'm laying the blame on Sexton, I'm not but again I'd argue his tiredness was a contributory factor and I don't how anyone is really trying say it wasn't. We can admire him and Farrell but that doesn't mean either are infallible.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121273820#Comment_121273820

a 50 minute, relatively easy run out, after a week off is simply not impacting your fitness towards the end of a game a week later.

He was tired because it was a tiring game. The same reason most of the rest of both teams were tired at the time.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121273837#Comment_121273837

This is getting circular and obviously you don't want to accept it but the lads were tired because of the lack of rotation. We have out 15 and we use our 15 seemed to be the mantra.

I suggested in the lead up the Scotland game that Farrell should use his 16-23 to start but no, we went full tilt and the lads were wrecked in the last few minutes of the QF.

We can't just pass this loss off on NZ being better, we were poorer than any of our other games, was some of that down to fatigue, I think it was.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121273868#Comment_121273868

This is getting circular and obviously you don't want to accept it but the lads were tired because of the lack of rotation.

I won't accept it because it's not true. The man played 50 easy minutes in a 3 week period leading up to the match. Your point would have some merit if not for the rest week, but the rest week existed and the management knew about it!

The worst mistakes we made were in the first 20 minutes when fatigue was absolutely, 100% not a factor. Had players been rested, I'm sure people would be claiming rustiness was a factor instead having not played in so long.

Players on both sides were clearly tired in the last 20 minutes of both our match and the SA-France match. That is what such a high intensity match does to players.

Tombo2001

Is there anything of value to be added from all the retrospective analysis that has taken place on this site and elsewhere? Anything apart from "players shouldnt make mistakes"...? Anything that could inform us about how things should be done differently in four, or eight years time.

I really dont see it, which says to me the coaching team and players did a really good job preparing for this tournament.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121273910#Comment_121273910

There is no obvious mistakes we have made beyond "we didn't play well enough in the QF".

I am sure that studies will be commissioned and they will try and learn from it - as they should. But this isn't like 07 or 19 when we clearly fell flat. It's fine margin stuff.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121273928#Comment_121273928

But thats sport - its absolute, there is one winner and one loser; but there is a very fine line in between, a lot of the time. Hande Pollard misses his kick, and all of a sudden Steve Borthwick is the best England Manager for 20 years.

Jump_In_Jack

If we could do it all again I think we'd have been better served to have let Sexton retire (or go seek a contract abroad) two years ago and just moved on with other options. It was a distraction on many levels that didn't pay off. We still would have won the grand slam regardless, and we wouldn't have had any doubts about bringing on substitutes at key times in matches to introduce a bit of impetus when the match is in the balance.

Podge_irl

Ah yes, we would have been better off with the WR POTY nominee 2022 retiring before that season.

I love the casual drop in of "would have won the grand slam regardless" when the only 6N match we have lost over the last two seasons is the one he missed also.

I suspect there is not a single coach or player in world rugby who would agree with you. It's an utterly insane take that we would have been better off without one of our best players. But no, I'm sure a Joey Carbery led Ireland would have been exactly as successful over the last 2 years.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121273547#Comment_121273547

Its a percentages game. All it takes is for a couple of players to dip in form, be tired, not concentrate, miss a tackle, etc for you to be penalised at this level and there are none better at doing that than NZ. If you look at the SA v England game, the English hooker fluffed one of the throw ins a couple metres from the SA line,, SA gain possession and a minute or two later are down the field scoring themselves. That fluffed line-out possibly cost them the game. These sort of mistakes happen when you are tired. Never saw it happen before in an international match myself.

To say they choked is like saying Mayo lose because of the alleged "curse". They lose because they fell down in a couple of key areas. Mayo were good enough to win several All-Irelands in recent years, but were missing a couple of pieces of the puzzle in terms of tactics.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121273718#Comment_121273718

No, they edged it by 4 points. A try is 5.

There is zero evidence that the team choked. There is no set 'best level'. In the 17 unbeaten games they played the team in front of them on the day at massively varying levels and with mistakes aplenty. The circumstances of the game dictated how the game played out in other words.

In the last three games they played their QF opponents they won 2 and lost by a lot in one. This game was always going to be a toe to toe battle, and quite simply, they won it, after a titanic struggle with zero quarter given by either team.

That is simply not a choke and never will be unless you want to cheaply demean people. What choked was your sense of entitlement to something we were never entitled to.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121273983#Comment_121273983

With a 4 year cycle in mind there’s no way the final two years should be gambled on a 36 year old.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274015#Comment_121274015

The single biggest reason that they didn't win one is that their peak coincided with the best and most dominant team in the history of the game.

If that Mayo team played in any of the three previous decades, they'd have won a title, I believe.

I agree on percentages but sometimes, there is an element of sheer crap luck and that can be the reason those couple of per cent are missed. If SA had a game the week before France and didn't have 2 weeks to rest and focus entirely on their QF, I think they'd be at home.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274019#Comment_121274019

What would have changed, though? Carbery would have had more game time. He already had a good chunk of game time but was going backwards in performance culminating in being dropped in Munster. So then you'd be looking at Crowley who only really came through in Munster this season so wouldn't really have had much more game time/exposure than he has now.

To forcibly omit your most influential player and a key component of the team because he's old despite playing really well should be a sackable offence.

squidgainz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274017#Comment_121274017

Are you serious? We needed a try to beat them. Ridiculous semantics. Wont bother reading the rest and we can leave it there.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121273882#Comment_121273882

The rest week is almost irrelevant, a 38yo played 50 mins in a match that he need not have played in and then played 80, a match that Farrell had intended to play him for the full 80. It didn't make sense before the Scotland game, it didn't make sense after the Scotland game and it showed it didn't make sense during the final quarter of the QF.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274081#Comment_121274081

We needed a try to beat them

They edged it by 4 points.

Why would I use 'edge' in relation to Ireland? We didn't edge it, they did.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274071#Comment_121274071

I saw no evidence in the whole tournament of Sexton being any better than the alternatives. I don't go along with the idea that he was irreplaceable and certainly with 2 years to plan without him the alternatives could have been fully backed and prepared.

It's part of the reason they couldn't lift it another gear when it mattered.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274384#Comment_121274384

I saw no evidence in the whole tournament of Sexton being any better than the alternatives.

Which alternatives?

No better than Crowley? No better than Carberry? No better than Ross Byrne?

I saw evidence of him playing and excelling at a high level crunch test match which none of those players outside of Carberry has yet done. And Carberry is not good enough at the moment.

Whatever about comments on how we used Sexton, suggesting we would have been better off without him is insanity and every last player in the squad would laugh at the suggestion.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274019#Comment_121274019

so in 2022 we should have dropped a player who was nominated for world player of the year.

thats a strange way to prepare for a world cup.

Age and minutes in the legs had no bearing on sexton in this competition. he didn't "break down" like many had predicted beforehand, with some suggesting he couldn't play in two consecutive games. And in the game against new Zealand he was still marshalling them around the pitch after 37 phases with the clock in the red. Fitness to play was absolutely not an issue for sexton.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274436#Comment_121274436

It wouldn't be anything like insanity, quite the opposite.

Why are no other teams trying it? It was a sentimental decision, and kicking away possession and missing a simple penalty is not evidence of excelling.

If they had trusted the up and coming players more, Byrne probably sticks that penalty and Crowley comes on with 20 to go and sticks a drop goal to finish.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274384#Comment_121274384

then you cannot see what he does on the pitch... which is understandable if your following the ball all the time,.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274483#Comment_121274483

lol...."probably". We wouldn't have been in that position in the first place.

Crowley has time on his side, but neither him or Byrne are even close to the player Sexton is - not was, is. I don't understand why some people can have coaches and players across rugby extolling the virtues of an Irish player in a way they never have before, and instead push back with "he should have retired". Every member of the squad, without prompting, mentioned how important he was to them being there and performing as they did. It's just such a weird contrarian take.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121273565#Comment_121273565

Time against England, Samoa or Italy in a warm up game would have been huge, he could have been rested for Romania or Tonga or even Scotland then and have had a bit more energy for the QF

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274592#Comment_121274592

Sure of course the echo chamber will say that, who in their right mind is going to say anything negative from within the camp, that's not proof of anything. The proof is in the missed opportunity, and one element of that was the reluctance to trust the next generation of players after the abject failure of the 2019 team. There were other decisions that were made leading into the match that I'd question, such as starting Hansen when he was not 100%, (O'Brien should have started) which meant we didn't have McCloskey to come in with 20 to go to help give a bit of go forward ball when bodies were tiring.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274667#Comment_121274667

Slightly less game time 5 weeks before the quarter final is not going to have given anyone more energy in that match. I don't understand what the supposed physiological reasons are supposed to be?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274708#Comment_121274708

Playing 80 minutes less against Scotland, Romania or Tonga would be neither the definition of "Slightly less game time" or would it have been "5 weeks before a Quarter Final" but aside from that your comment is 100% true. As for the psychological reasons, how do you feel psychologically after taking a holiday from work, more or less refreshed than if you were in the office?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121274706#Comment_121274706

Not a hope was McCloskey ready for the last 20 minutes against NZ, he's not had nearly enough game time for Ireland...

Now you could argue that was down to the bias shown for one particular province in the last few seasons and somebody should certainly be held accountable for that decision but it is only another small part of us losing the QF

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121273882#Comment_121273882

Will you stop with the 50 minute stat. He played 180 minutes against SA, Scotland and NZ in 3 weeks. Let that sink in. 3 of the most physical teams out there. And he's 38. He also played 5 games in 6 weeks.

jones

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121273910#Comment_121273910

More rotation in the group stages is the only thing i take from this RWC. I really like the management team but starting 38 year old Sexton in every game was crazy we got away with it from an injury perspective but Sexton was on his knees at the end of the QR and yet remained on the pitch. I know Farrell (as did i) still thought the game was there to be won (and it so nearly was) but surely Crowley needed to come on with ten to go.

End of the day the team was about as well prepared as it could have been. A little more rest for some key players in group stage and more trust in the backups is the only "learning" i would take from this.