Australia Rejects Recognition of Aboriginals - For Shame

marno21

(Posting this from New South Wales).

This was such a missed opportunity that has really gone sour for the PM. Had he decided to hold a basic referendum on constitutional recognition and legislated a voice to Parliament it would have passed with flying colours. Referendums are notoriously difficult to pass in Australia, requiring a national majority and a majority in 4/6 of the states. It was very clear from the beginning that WA and Qld were going to be solid no votes, but the no votes in the other states (South Australia was seen as a tossup last week - ended up 65% no despite the PM making several trips to Adelaide and regional SA to campaign) and the extent of same came as a surprise.

In the end, it's clear to see where the fault lines are. The yes voting districts were affluent suburbs of Melbourne and Sydney with million dollar houses and Canberra, the political bubble (same as Washington DC voting for Democrats every time by 70+% margins). The squeezed commuter districts were heavy no votes. Given the housing crisis and the cost of living issues (as in Ireland) it was always going to be a big backlash against the Government for focusing on so called "woke" issues instead of focusing on day to day issues for people.

To compare loosely to Ireland, the areas that voted yes are areas that would be bigger supporters of the Green Party and their policies. It's a similar type of divide.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121241073#Comment_121241073

Does compulsory voting apply to referendums there? I only remember it being for national elections.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121241093#Comment_121241093

Yes, compulsory voting. Busy outside the polling stations all day.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121241163#Comment_121241163

Thanks.

I bet the idea got stuck in people's minds that this would give aboriginal corporations a veto, even though it's only about a voice.

There's no monuments in Canberra for the frontier wars, they don't want to talk about that.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240823#Comment_121240823

An unfortunately legacy of how they were brutalised.

There was a rape policy where young girls were taken and then systematically bred with whites to "bred the black out if them".

White australia doesn't really talk about it.

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240999#Comment_121240999

That’s a silly article, it was not a proxy referendum on indigenous peoples right to exist in their own land, that’s hysterical misinformation.

Of course people who supported the referendum are disappointed but labelling people who don’t agree with you is a bad look.

in the interests of balance one would hope the Guardian had opinion articles from people who backed the other side.

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121241357#Comment_121241357

Eh No , this is the Guardian

BorneTobyWilde

Referendums are dangerous tools these days, of course it does give a true reflection of society, but if you don't like the answer, don't ask the questions. You could have a referendum in Ireland, UK, France, Germany etc, and the result every time would come down on the side of rejecting more rights for what are seen as '' outsiders'' . The majority of people are sick and tired of the far left agenda, and if controversial subjects are put to a referendum society will speak, but isn't that democracy ? How can there be outrage over democracy??

Kaybaykwah

In view of what happened in Canada, and our legacy in regard to Native peoples, I am not shocked, just disturbed, as per usual in this kind of situation.

When the Canadian government wanted to "clear the land for Euro settlers in the late nineteenth, they proceeded to displace Cree communities that were located in the prairie provinces to territory around James Bay in Quebec, where Innu and Inuit people crossed paths with them.

Fast forward to the early seventies, the Cree were displaced, disturbed again when Quebec decided to build massive Hydro dams along the La Grande river which was essentially the size of England in scope.

Nowadays, it is increasingly difficult to plan and execute these developments without compromising solutions of a higher order toward indigenous populations, and also the "white villages" near the coveted sites. On Quebec’s Lower North Shore, the Innu communities and towns along the Gulf of St Lawrence got massive annual contributions for allowing development of the Romaine project to go through.

The technique is now to promise jobs and training to locals, and shower them with money.

The reason why Australia and Canada wanted the Indigenous populations to settle is that the nomadic lifestyle meant these people could and did claim rightful use of territory (UN…) since they occupied it versus the invaders purchasing mining claims and unbridled expropriation policies. Not a pretty picture. I am thinking that Rio Tinto and other large Australian mining concerns have a very strong commitment to keeping with the status quo in these matters. In Canada, BC is a good place to look at constant scuffles btwn Government and First Nations as far as territorial uses go.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121241406#Comment_121241406

Ironically, the far left were on the No side in this one.

"Opposition also emerged from the far left of progressive politics and a minority of grassroots Indigenous activists, who rejected the voice while calling for more significant reconciliation measures, including a treaty with Aboriginal Australians."

Fred Cryton

No was absolutely the correct decision. There is no justification for separating a particular ethnic group in the constitution and giving them special status. That has always and will always lead to disaster. Especially in a muti-ethnic melting pot like Australia, where people from literally hundreds of different countries have come to make home. Just treat everyone the same with equal rights.

Lets bear in mind the Irish were treated horribly in Australian for the first 200 years of its existence. Should the Irish have special status in the constitution? where does it stop.

This is just the type of woke nonsense dreamed up in the office of an NGO, and make no mistake its coming to Ireland.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121241584#Comment_121241584

The vote wasn't giving any one a veto.

Again it's same nonsense that being spread that the abos are taking our lawn. Every generation seems to go through hysteria before understanding the issue in retrospect.

Unfortunately about Aboriginal people living in a white dominated society & culture, they never had alcohol in their society and culture and their bodies haven’t adapted to the culture bestowed on them by white settlers. The result is that alcohol has a particularly bad effect on their bodies. They become addicted very rapidly and their metabolism & brains just don’t deal with its effects well, so it can lead to major social problems, ending up in jail etc. white settle my did no favours to the indigenous people who had for millennia been experts at coping with an extreme form of living in harmony with nature in a challengingly hot climate.

fullstop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236716#Comment_121236716

Haven’t seen Australia bate Mayo out the gate in many AI Finals 🙃

cj maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240581#Comment_121240581

No as I stated in my post I’ve met relatively few , and all in NYC . I found all of them quite racist and intolerant of non caucations . Small sample size but MY experience. I never claimed ALL Australia was like that just the ones IVE met

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121241584#Comment_121241584

The Irish in Australia were not the original owners of the land, and had it stolen.

If you want to use an Irish analogy use the plantation of ulster only worse.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121241660#Comment_121241660

Here is the post you made that I responded to.

It is a blanket assumption.

I have family who live in Australia and who are Australian citizens. They are regular people who live their lives without hate. Of course there is racism in Australia, they are not unique in that way but it isn't every person. The sweeping statements of the country and it's inhabitants being racist are very unfair. It is a vast vast place and while you may have had negative experiences regarding the Australian people you met that does not mean that "Australians are horrible people".

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240481#Comment_121240481

Irish travellers absolutely deserve equal treatment which they don't get.

You can be absolutely certain that if my family was burning rubbish at my home we'd be prosecuted, if my family wasn't sending my children to school Tulsa would be visiting, my family was organising riots or racing on main roads in the streets of towns the gardai might notice.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236710#Comment_121236710

Equal marriage

Sultan of Bling

Sometimes when it comes to racism, the Australians can be a bit misunderstood.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0YM9Ereg2Zo&si=Imyu_uQJ-8ud2jbu

yagan

I think a huge problem for bringing any single issue to a referendum in Australia is their extremely short three years between elections. I was there when they went through 5 pms in 5 years, yes as bad the UK in recent years.

Politics is constantly on the boil there, it felt like they switched straight into election campaigning mode as soon as the last election was over so obviously the opposition is going to fight any referendum the sitting government brings.

dickdasr1234

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240374#Comment_121240374

And you think people understand the politics of countries they do live in?

markodaly

Interesting stat.

The consistency of Fowler in Western Sydney has 60% of its population born overseas. Most of these are from Vietnam, China, India, Iraq etc..

They voted No to the voice by a margin of 60-40

Similar trends repeated all over the country.

There seems to be a consensus now that the Yes campaign was solely aimed at Inner City white educated types, forging the huge migrant population and working classes further along from the Inner Cities.

It is kind of ironic that given Australia is such a vibrant diverse country now, that it has been one (not the only though) of the downfalls of this referendum.

HalloweenJack

It is sad that the native community have become a minority after having their land taken from them and being marginalised for so long. I'm sure the Voice wouldn't have been perfect but it would have at least been an acknowledgement of the country's original inhabitants and a step in the right direction.

It is interesting that the changing demographics of immigration, as a poster above noted, seems to have squeezed the vote a bit more. Could it be a case of different minorities not wanting to see another given a more prominent role?

From what I've read about this referendum, I'd say it failed because what the Voice was going to be and the powers it was going to have didn't seem to be clearly defined and this left it open to be picked apart. It seemed that its supporters believed more in the ideal behind it and thought it would be enough to carry it, as opposed to more detailed information abouts its workings.

I've never been to Australia and the only Australian I know to any serious degree is a backward bigot. I know how he would have voted and his reasons why but I think he couldn't be considered a modern Australian. Australia does have its rep but places like Sydney and Melbourne seem to be fairly progressive places. I guess its just bringing the urban/rural divide back into focus.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245366#Comment_121245366

Had the PM legislated for a voice (which he was always free to do) and sought a constitutional amendment to recognise Indigenous Australians it would have been case closed.

It was a high stakes political gamble that completely backfired.

Varik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245389#Comment_121245389

Think that an amendment for just recognition would have failed too, it's too vague. The constitutionality of any ownership or jurisdiction would have come up constantly for anything involving aboriginals.

The voice didn't need an amendment but at least its one was far more limited in how it could be interpreted.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245049#Comment_121245049

There was even a Vietnamese guy called John Nyugan who was campaigning against boat people even though he arrived illegally on a boat as a child.

Being tough on the next immigrant wave seems to be an Australian right of passage, or ghetto politics. A lot of the neo nazis there seemed to be second/third generation of European immigration whose parents/grandparents received digs abuse when they first arrived. They bashed on the Lebanese who came after them, and the cycle continues..

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240352#Comment_121240352

How many travellers have you ever interacted with….?

sandbelter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121241584#Comment_121241584

If I recall, Ireland had a voice unaccountable to parliament...a Unionist voice for much of its history...and look at it's legacy....Nothing good came from it.

I agree, people sensed division, the preference given one one group was very much at odds with PM Hawke's promise of "no hierarchy of birth"....older voters in particular sensed another broken promise.

But I would add, not only couldn't the "Yes" simply explain what the "voice" was, it relied on an element of trust us....and that is where it fell down for many.

This in a country where people remember Paul Keatings (ALP) L-A-W tax cuts and commitment never remove the mortgage interest rate cap, John Howard's (Lib) "Core and non Core promises" and committing Australia to a war in Iraq on a lie, Julia Gillard's (ALP) throwing the single mothers on to the "work for the dole" scheme (think the self righteousness behind the poor house), only to get caught in the robodebt scandal...and despite all the haunting suicides triggered this scheme and an estimated 663 dead...the architects of the scheme, overseen former PM Scott Morrision (lib), walks free.....can you be surprised that the voters that experienced the worst of this....the poor and migrants...said "nope...we can't trust you"?

No was the right answer....this time.

Sunny Disposition

I've lived in a lot of countries, for fairly long periods of time, due to business. As time goes on you realise that racism isn't nearly as prevalent in other places as people would have you believe. in my experience Australians certainly aren't particularly racist, in fact I think very few places would be as multicultural as the big Australian cities. And while cities might be outliers in many other countries that's not really the case in Australia, most of the population in coastal urban areas.

In general though, everywhere I've gone, people know that it's best to judge people on their own characters rather than the group they come from. To an extent that breaks down a bit when there are groups that are more likely to be involved in property crime, but almost everyone knows that you can't paint everyone with the same brush. It's like people carry out racial profiling the same as some police forces do.

Despite all the criticism of Australians here, I would have found white Australians were far more open to indigenous people than the Irish are towards Travellers. Don't get me wrong at all, there are very clear reasons why people here have issues with Travellers and the white Australians have with the indigenous people. But Irish people have no business at all getting sanctimonious about issues on the far side of the world that they have no lived experience of.

blackbox

I don't know the details of how this referendum would have affected people.

I understand that voting was compulsory.

Any Australian who wasn't sure what the impact will be is more likely to vote against no matter what the topic.

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248639#Comment_121248639

Irish people are extremely tolerant of travellers

despite the rampant criminality, cradle to grave financial baby sitting by the tax payer (as they refuse to educate themselves to the point of being employable ), optionality surrounding car insurance or motor tax compliance and general contempt for societal norms as well as those who fund their existence

all we the “ settled community “ do is grumble , nothing is done to address the scandal which is the spoiling of these people throughout their lives

we saw a few years ago how New Zealand dealt with a bit of traveller nonsense, as expected the Irish media branded the kiwis bigoted, such delinquency would result in a shrug of the shoulders here and that’s just the guards

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248639#Comment_121248639

The death in custody cases of western Australia would suggest otherwise.

A west Oz senior police head told me he preferred recruiting from Europe because the local guys couldn't be trusted to not let prejudice colour their judgement.

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248694#Comment_121248694

We literally let them do whatever they want, allow ridiculous levels of crime to take place in the open, animal cruelty, child neglect, abuse of women etc. and all reporting on issues is completely blanked so they don't look bad. Yet in liberal lunatic land they are the victims in every way.

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249154#Comment_121249154

Sorry, I can’t further comment, someone reported me

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249154#Comment_121249154

Which is why I keep saying any comparison with Australia is comical considering the abuse aboriginal people still get in their homeland.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245798#Comment_121245798

The trope that 'Australians are very racist' is overblown.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121250476#Comment_121250476

In fairness the friendliest most sincere racists I've encountered were Australian. They tended to be from the outback where their daddy's and daddy's before them grew up shooting abos who they saw as a pest.

I was shocked when I learnt that they were getting away with that up until recent generations.

The more sincere they were the more unnerving it was.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121250476#Comment_121250476

It's absolutely ridiculous, spent a couple of years in Melbourne and Perth and it is a really diverse place, never encountered any racism myself. Of course there'll be some eejits but you'd have a hard time being a racist there as it's such a mix of cultures.

Funny coming from Irish people too, Ireland is the only place I've seen people shouting n**ger etc. at security guards and black people walking down the street.

fplfan12345

..

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121250476#Comment_121250476

It's like a foreigner met the Healy Raes and decided all Irish people must be like them.

Fr Tod Umptious

On the Australian racist thing I think you have to drill down a bit more than just saying they are a racist people.

Yes they are a diverse society with a lot of different cultures that live and work together.

But there attitude to aboriginals goes beyond that.

Similar to Ireland where you see an increased level of diversity, and people will consider themselves as not being racist, but at the same time have a viseral hatred for travelers.

Sunny Disposition

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2023/10/16/why-do-we-comment-on-things-we-know-nothing-about

I know it’s paywalled but it’s good. As I read the article I was reminded of this thread about a referendum on the other side of the world that Irish people felt reflected a racist society because that was their impression from the holiday they took or the Aussie they once met.

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121252879#Comment_121252879

Quite a lot of Irish people have relatives in Australia. My family there, any that have commented, voted yes. But they say it was defeated by a few factors. One , the actual working of the proposal was confused, allowing many people to attack it while at the same time supporting Aboriginal rights. The other , is that Mr Murdoch and his media played a big part in it's defeat. And finally, many Australians are deeply opposed to any rights for the Aboriginal population. They deny that their own ancestors stole the aboriginal lands and marginalised the original populations. It is hard for rural populations, proud of their huge farms and farm businesses, to admit it was all stolen, almost like an existential crisis. in general the questions about the Aboriginal populations were received, not as simple enquiry, but rather as criticism. . In many rural towns I visited, there were local museums. All very interesting, but they all , without exception, began their collections from the time white settlers arrived in the area. No information about the peoples who lived their before them. It was like the Aboriginal population never existed. It was uncanny how often this was repeated in town after town.

Potential-Monke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121252708#Comment_121252708

I wouldn't say it's a visceral hatred, but due to personal and professional experiences I would prefer to never have to deal with them and my trust in them is basically zero. Open to having my mind changed, but that's not up to me, it's up to them to prove they deserve my trust. Recent news doesn't help the cause. Good thing they're not a separate race, or I could be called racist! Bigoted through experience, maybe.

Never been to Oz, don't know the history between them.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121252944#Comment_121252944

That was my experience when I lived there, but I'd also add for many they really don't understand, or can't accept how dependent their current lifestyles is entirely dependent on China buying commodities mined from same said stolen land.

I met one really interesting old Australian from a wheatbelt town who had served in Vietnam. He said when he was a kid they were pretty taught to view Aboriginals as vermin that you could shoot if they're on your farm. He then went to Vietnam and felt the same way about the Vietnamese.

His upbringing he said was typical of Victorian eugenic view that fossilized for generations in the Australian outback.

However when he served his time in Vietnam he took off on his world travel and in England he met an Irish girl, followed her back to northern Ireland and it was there that he saw white Europeans at war that he realised that all Vietnamese and Aboriginals are just people like him too.

He spent the rest of his life working in conflict resolution. An amazing guy and my only regret was not remembering his name.

He said racism in Australia is more than a human reaction, it's an Australian right.