Rugby world cup post mortem

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121278622#Comment_121278622

No

Like Scotland go on because they got to a semi in whatever year it was, but won what in the last 20+ year won what? even from a club point of view they have one competition win.

Would you take a semi and then 20+ years of nothing? I certainly wouldn't

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121276548#Comment_121276548

AKA the match SA won by 15 points and never looked like losing. If Ireland nned their very best team to beat Scotland it really doesn't say much for the players outside the first 15.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121277355#Comment_121277355

No, but having an understanding of rugby is something they should have. If the Irish coaches felt the Irish players are so unique that they vsnt play everyone game in a world cup, despite no other team doing the same then fair enough to them. Unfortunately, they were wrong.

Again, if it's total nonsense why does no other nation do it. We also don't have games against SA and NZ in the 6N. Not to mention how we rarely win 5 matches in the 6N and we nearly always rotate heavily vs Italy.

I'm not sure using a game where they lost 42-19 is a great example of how Ireland have no difficult managing three games in a row tbh.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121279475#Comment_121279475

Three test series, they won 2-1

D.L.R.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121277168#Comment_121277168

Some salt for your massive chip?

D.L.R.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121277660#Comment_121277660

The Mexico 86 format is a tried and tested 24 team setup, the Euros use it right now. 6 groups, top two qualify plus 4 best 3rd place teams. Great for the tier 2 nations and less dead rubbers.

The 5 team pool is so tedious and boring, surprised it lasted this long.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121280849#Comment_121280849

Its a poor format alright and should have been removed about 2011 as the game progressed more into professional era

OldRio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121280830#Comment_121280830

I see you. Gaslighting, so obvious.

saabsaab

For me it would be a Grand Slam over any number of WC quarter finals.

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121280849#Comment_121280849

Sorry if this has been discussed already. But say ireland are in group a and win it. Who do we play? 2nd in group b? Where do the 4 best 3rd place teams come back into it?

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281536#Comment_121281536

I think it's going to be like the the current ERC - after tyhe pool stages you have the Top16 fighting it out for the QFs.

Winners of the 6 pools = 6

Runners Up of the 6 Pools =6

4 of the 3rd placed teams on the 6 Pools = 4

Must love hardship

That would make it difficult to buy tickets for a last 16 match.. saying that I don't think I'll be making the trip to oz.

I know the old system wasn't perfect by any means but at least you could buy tickets for 2 1/4's in the one city on the same weekend and be guaranteed to see your team if they qualified..

AbusesToilets

Be nice if they seeded the knock outs based on pool performance.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282429#Comment_121282429

Not really possible.

D.L.R.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281311#Comment_121281311

Not clear you know what that word means

D.L.R.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281536#Comment_121281536

Group winners would play a 2nd or 3rd placed team. There are several permutations based on which 3rd place teams advance.

Ardillaun

The QFs on our side of the draw were close and even the best team can be knocked out before the final as has happened to NZ on more than one occasion. If we perform as well as we did this time in future WCs, probability suggests we’ll eventually progress beyond the QF stage.

Bass Reeves

Looks like one of the best managers in European Rugby think Johnny should have been replaced towards the end of the game

https://www.planetrugby.com/news/ronan-ogara-believes-blunted-johnny-sexton-should-have-been-taken-off

He thinks that he was blunted as a force at that stage of the game. He was amazed he even managed to finish the game. IHO we need to bei g Crowley on to change the pace of the game while acknowledging that he did not know how JC would come in a knock out game. As well he highlights no replacement for Johnny was the elephant in the room for the Irish team.

Looking at critically nearly every other team was replacing there outhalf with 10-15 minutes to go except Ireland with the oldest OH in the competition

mattser

3,2,1..........

riddles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297085#Comment_121297085

But they weren’t Johnny

Clegg

Is Andy Farrell not also one of the best coaches in world rugby?

Field east

The final. A riveting match to watch particularly the communication s between the ref and the TMO team , the errors spotted and their explainations. Hope Ireland get brain washed on how SA defended for the Whole 80 minutes. NZ was almost through on a number of occasions but for a final tackle - there was always one SA player there in the right position - DE Clerks trip tackle towards the end was a classic

Igotadose

I didn't watch Rugby until moving here 9 years ago. Sorry I missed it for so many years, great game and great entertainment.

However, I really couldn't stand watching the 'rout' games (78-0?) Can't they have a mercy clause at least, down by, I dunno, 40+ and the game is called? The tight games like Ireland/NZ and NZ/SA were worth watching, but anything with Namibia in it...

ongarite

Eddie Jones resigned as Australia coach.

I would say players & ARU are glad to see this ending & can build for home World Cup now with young squad.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121243511#Comment_121243511

Here's the thing though, if it was switched to a different month and the same results happen, the excuse would be that the NH teams were tired after a tough 6 nation's while the SH teams were fresh. We need to look for reasons, not excuses. When playing France, NZ or SA Ireland can be prone to mistakes, unnecessary and costly penalties and lineout issues. These do not get punished the same by teams at the next level ie Wales, Scotland. Small things are what makes the difference at this level. Beating SA shows Ireland were not far off, but there needs to be tough analysis as to why we yet again failed at the QF, either that or we need to just be happy with being nearly men.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297085#Comment_121297085

He was only shovelling the ball on to the next nearest player. He was not a threat the NZ defence because they knew he was going to pass it.

At one stage he entered a ruck in those last phases, he had to kneel first to get up.

He was on his last legs but Farrell stuck with him. We'll die wondering "What if"

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297293#Comment_121297293

And had we replaced him and it didn't work, we would die wondering something else. Just a waste of time and energy wondering about such things really.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297291#Comment_121297291

We need to look for reasons, not excuses

I'm sure this soundbite sounds good, but it's rather meaningless and pretty much just based on someone's own interpretation.

The different position of the world cup in the season for NH and SH teams is a potential reason for the disparity in performance and results. Handwaving it away by saying "oh we're just not good enough" is in fact just refusing to look at it clinically.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297291#Comment_121297291

If you see post 6 nations the teams are still in Europe and go into the final part of the season, nobody is saying they are tired....

Unless they put a global calendar into place it will never be answered or swap the World Cup every 4 years to happen at another time of season.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297293#Comment_121297293

ROG was on off the ball the other day saying he wouldn't have taken off Sexton. He said himself if he was coaching would he bring n Crowley and he answer was no. His own words

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297335#Comment_121297335

But at least we'd know we subbed a tired player for a fresh player and tried something. This isn't ticket science.

riddles

Is it the case that Ireland as a group have over achieved in the last four years and don’t have the strength in depth needed to challenge in the RWC?

Given that we went with a 38 year old out half, a malfunctioning line out and a scrum that lacked cover? We seem to lack any of the dark arts to an almost naive extent. Lack the raw power and natural skill sets.

All that added up was the performance against SA and NZ an over achievement and would that group have had the reserves to go all the way?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297546#Comment_121297546

Yeh and we might know it was the wrong call.

There'd be just as many crying about taking him off, in other words.

Some things are just not worth investing in because we'll never know either way.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297610#Comment_121297610

How could it be any worse, we were knocked out in that game.

If anyone suggested adding a player to the Irish squad that played to the standard that Sexton played in the last 10-15 minutes there isn't a poster here that would agree it was a runner. Sexton was dead on his feet, barely keeping up with play, wasn't a threat to NZ defence, they just ignored any threat that he'd normally present to them and watched for the receiver.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297675#Comment_121297675

How could it be any worse, we were knocked out in that game.

This is just the height of absurd hindsight thinking. And obviously there are numerous ways it could have been worse - we could have not managed to get into their 22 for example.

Also saying Sexton was "barely keeping up with play" is an outright lie.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297689#Comment_121297689

The bottom line is we got into their 22, we didn't score. With a running threat we'd have got there anyway.

keeping up with play" is an outright lie.

No it is not, watch Sexton again, after one ruck, he's on his knees, barely able to get up, play moving away from him, another ruck, he's offering nothing & play moves on and he's walking back into position.

That's not what we expect or normally see from Sexton.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297675#Comment_121297675

He was running around trying to keep the ball in play at the very last play.

If you see that as 'dead on his feet' then that is where your problem begins.

He was still offering something, the coach made an in-play decision and is now being second guessed by people clinging to what might have beens and what is basically speculation that doesn't take into account what might have gone wrong.

All is rosy in their idealised views, in other words. That's not the real world where real coaches have to make real decisions.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297750#Comment_121297750

With a running threat we'd have got there anyway.

🙄

This is ridiculous. You have absolutely no idea if that is true and no one does and it is an absurdly flippant thing to say. What we do know is we got 60m up the pitch with Sexton at 10.

Your contention that things could only possibly have been better if Crowley came on is the height of absurdity. I'm not even saying it definitely would not have been, it might have been better but your inability to see any possible downside to removing Sexton is ridiculous.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297762#Comment_121297762

Correct. Crowley could have tried a rash, inexperienced kick over the top and given possession to NZ to end the game.

Who knows and why torture yourself anyway.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297776#Comment_121297776

And Sexton, with all his experience, tried a kick over the top which clearly wasn’t on and was dealt with very comfortably by NZ.

I’ve said it before; there was a very credible argument for Crowley to come on.

People are entitled to discuss it.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297762#Comment_121297762

we got 60m up the field with Sexton on the field. What exactly does that prove.

Anyone watching that and thinking Sexton is going to do some magic here was living in cloud cuckoo land.

As I said already, he offered no threat to NZ defence.

I accept, none of us can know what Crowley would have achieved but at the very least he'd have caused some concern to the NZ defence.

What we do know is he would have been fresh legs right when we needed them.

saabsaab

Well we beat SA and they went on to win the WC. Nothing between the top 4 teams.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297818#Comment_121297818

Not when the clock hit 80 he didn't.

Of course people can discuss, but it also ok to ask what is the point of discussing it and speculating that it might have worked. You have to give equal weight to it not working. So pointless really.

thebaz

I agree Crowley should have been brought on for last 15 , also think Farrell should have rested players like Furlong and Van der Flier , but it may not have made any difference, we'll never know , will be very hard for the players to move on , given its 4 years away to put things right.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297393#Comment_121297393

The current position could actually be giving the NH an advantage. That also has to be looked at clinically. Maybe the gap between the teams is actually bigger and the timing of the world cup helps narrow it. If the world cup had been switch around, Sexton wouldn't have even been available for it this year.

I think 6N would need to very clinically look at it before trying to push for any change.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297818#Comment_121297818

There is a credible argument.

What there isn't, is a credible argument that it was definitely the right thing to do and definitely a mistake to leave Sexton on.

Speculation is fine. This whole "now we'll be left die wondering" nonsense is ridiculous.

robbiezero

You would have thought if the RWC had SH teams more battle hardened for the WC, it would have manifested itself in the pool stages especially, which did not seem to be the case.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297868#Comment_121297868

You have to give equal weight to it not working. So pointless really.

You don’t, tho, that’s the point. On the balance of probabilities, I think Crowley should have been brought on.

To be clear, I’m not saying we absolutely would have scored with Crowley on the field. But I feel it may have given us a better opportunity.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297675#Comment_121297675

The key point is in here for me.

You have to look at everything in context.

It's not Crowley vs Sexton. It's Crowley vs a Sexton, who hardly went 80 mins, in the final 10 minutes of a QF, 38 years of age, struggling to keep up with play and leaving our attack predictable.

The 60m gained is both irrelevant (because the objective was to score a try) and missing context - a tired NZ defense will be easier for basic 10 play to pick at, i.e., before they go to their full line in the 22. Crowley or Byrne could have also brought us 60m up the field in that scenario.

Once inside the 22 is where things get a lot more difficult. And was there upside in Crowley's freshness, superior athleticism and linebreak threat? Yes.

In that scenario, i.e. losing in the final minutes of a knockout game, a coach has no downside when going for broke. Foster/Schmidt made a call in this vein last night, bringing on McKenzie for Mo'unga with 5 to go. Nobody is currently cribbing that Mo'unga might have been the better organizer and gotten them into range for a penalty.

Add it all up for me, and Farrell made an error of judgement based on probabilities. To say certain outcomes need to be 100% proven to say this is a straw man.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121298030#Comment_121298030

Nutshell

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121298030#Comment_121298030

Sexton was no longer able to make loop runs or staged plays at that stage. We had bought on a fresh center and winger. We needed to get the ball out to them or to make NZ believe it was an option to move the ball wide. NZ knew that Sexton was incapable of loop runs at that stage and that he was also incapable of line breaks so they would have set there defence up with nobody marking Sexton as he was not a threat

Must love hardship

Sexton had not played 80 minutes in 12 month and that game was as result to injuries to two other backs. Sexton wasn't even taking the last kicks at goal in that game.

Farrell has gotten a lot right over the last 2 years.. but personally I think he wasn't ruthless enough ultimately in not taking off sexton and POM and bringing Earls and Kilkoyne to the world cup.