Rugby world cup post mortem

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244216#Comment_121244216

They are all the questions that should be asked and honest answers sought. I don't know the answers to them all.

On the Sexton one, I think they were all tired. But I don't know if Crowley would have been able to marshal that final phase and it all might have have been over sooner.

I think Sexton wanted a penalty there, they never seemed to seriously look for a line break and sprint to the line. I was screaming at Barnes to put his arm out several times as NZ infringed and then he ignored the clear no release at the end. Personal spite at Sexton? Who knows, you had a similar incident in the Fra v SA game, no penalty for a clear infringement in the ruck.

I know the Sexton question wouldn't be being asked today had we got a penalty and mauled the lineout over in the corner.

Such is life.

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244070#Comment_121244070

There are a lot of inaccuracies in the above post. The SH have been pushing for an integrated global calendar, with opposition within the NH Unions, Scotland in particular. Indeed, the World Cup was largely a SH idea and was opposed by Northern Unions, including Ireland.

Moreover, most of the positive rule changes in the last two decades have been ideated and implemented in the South. The game is faster, more dynamic and more entertaining than it was 30 years ago in large part because of the willingness of the Southern Unions to experiment and embrace change.

It is impossible to argue the Six Nations as the pinnacle of the sport in terms of quality of play; and while the Southern teams largely do try to win games every autumn, it is usually at the end of their season and it is definitely not their best effort. Those victories are nice, but the NH is struggling to beat them on a level playing field when it matters. The NH is soon to be one in ten from world cups, that is the reality of where the sport is played to the highest level.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244216#Comment_121244216

The one I feel sorry for is Aki. I didn’t realise he is 31. He was brilliant and he did perform well against NZ as well.

Sexton should have been gone years ago. It annoys me the way he has been treated differently than others as if he was rugby’s answer to Lio Messi or something. He was put on a pedestal and left on it way too long. I’m glad he’s finally gone.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244132#Comment_121244132

Totally agree. Six nations, yawn... we have won it, won the grand slams. The rwc is all I care about at this stage...

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244242#Comment_121244242

But Ireland aren't a crap team, they were the best team in the world and with a lot of things in their favour. And they achieved nothing.

The first step to changing that is recognising what happened, yet everywhere I look I see people going on about fine margins, being unlucky and whinging about the draw.

Its a losers mentality and it is a killer, and the first step to changing is rejecting that mentality. Stop being specialists in failure and start demanding better.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244146#Comment_121244146

We play France away and England. Will likely finish it second or third given the fixtures, some chance of winning it outright obviously...

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244263#Comment_121244263

They were one of the best and still are.

There are fine margins and it is in who is the best on a given day at the top.

It really is no more complicated than that.

CONSI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244271#Comment_121244271

What does a 6 nations win mean now, France wont care about a 6 nations after this world cup...this is the opportunity to blood new players...the IRFU are in a healthy financial position, not like we need the prize money..

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244261#Comment_121244261

Sexton earned himself a lot of rope, but these people saying he was the best option and Crowley could not have replaced him, well, what exactly did Sexton do that Crowley could not?

They are still judging it on what he could have done or would have done in his prime, but lets face it, Sexton was nothing special in this tournament and by the end was actively a problem.

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244190#Comment_121244190

Those reverses and regressions in England and Wales (and Australia) hurt Irish rugby as well though. This is a small sport, and it is only really thriving in four nations at present (and the SA and NZ club games have issues). England and Wales and Scotland struggling makes it easier for us every spring, but it isn't helping us to be better prepared every four years, and it lowers the long term outlook for everyone. Sure, maybe we can be the great survivors of professional rugby and eventually sail into a semi final or more as the game falls to bits in nations 5 - 10. But I think the real takeaway from this world cup cycle as a whole is that the game needs to start thinking outside of the box in terms of how to grow the sport.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244231#Comment_121244231

They have made great strides and as you say above we’re in far better nick than most others in the Northern Hemisphere particularly. The World Cup though is the pinnacle and to get to the next level there, it’s at the World Cup that they want to be hitting the number 1 ranking. They weren’t prepared and didn’t have an answer for the line out and scrum problems when they arose and they left Sexton in situ too long.

Poor in game management was a big part in what let them down. Farrell has done brilliant but I wonder will England offer him the job which could work well for us if we get O’Gara instead who could be an upgrade.

Cork29

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244231#Comment_121244231

other teams preparing for a world cup, ireland focused on winning Mickey Mouse matches

How many starts did crowley get in those 17 matches?

having your replacement number 10 for a world cup with 3 starts when your first option is 38 is pure madness.

4 year cycles they talk in rugby and 3 starts.

Farrell should find someone to give him a good slap

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244290#Comment_121244290

I agree. World Rugby have many issues to deal with. I hope the appetite is there.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244275#Comment_121244275

And yet if you point out that Ireland underperformed relative to their recent form, and that if they had just played to their normal level they would have won, lads like you don't like the implication of that.

Murph85

Here is the issue now. Feels like a lot of us couldn't care less about the size nations , the world cup is where its at. Maybe its a healthy attitude shift. The head coach could adopt a similar mentality. But there is still no guarantee, that you then get past a qf of the rwc. You are still going to be in coin flip games. I believe I'm correct in saying that rugby are the sa and nz national sports ? If that's the case , there is the biggest unaddressable issue.

I think we have taken big strides in confidence and results. They are the thoroughbreds of the rugby world as its their national sport, they have the player pool, belief, mental strength etc.... it just becomes a self fulfilling prophecy..

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244294#Comment_121244294

There's could's and might's in all that too.

Would you agree that had that final phase paid off and we scored the match winning 5 marshalled by Sexton that the questions would be somewhat different today?

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244286#Comment_121244286

He was a fine player but not that good that he should still have been the out half in this World Cup at the age of 38. He should have been gone years ago. Even in that last game they left him on for the full 80 minutes even though he was out on his feet as if to say we couldn’t take him off at that stage. We really had to take him off he had nothing left. The manager to blame for that.

CONSI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244286#Comment_121244286

Yeah Sextons inability to run in the last 20 mins allowed NZ focus their defense on the 12/13 channel, with no loop around and outlet to get the ball wide it made for an easy defensive plan. The annoying thing is despite all that we had a chance but didnt trust the skillset, we had a 3-1 here on 81mins, keenan should have got it, that draws in jordan and lowe and i think o'brien have a chance, barret is struggling to cover across

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244305#Comment_121244305

We didn't perform in one game. That's what happened.

It's not the end of times like some are saying. It is time to ask the questions and answer them honestly but most of all, reasonably. Which is NOT what some are doing.

I think if there is one thing the rugby system does well here is ask questions of what we are doing and coming up with answers that allow us to go forward not debilitate us. That is why we were able to win 17 games on the trot. We didn't get there by asking questions unreasonably or which only have a negative answer. Nor from kneejerk reactions to the bad things that happened.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244321#Comment_121244321

Was it not Lowe who threw the ball slightly behind and high for him allowing the time for the cover to get there? Haven't watched that phase closely again so could be wrong.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244313#Comment_121244313

The final phase? They were out on their feet. Sexton in particular was done. Crowley should have been there for that final fling because at least he would have had fresh legs. Aki was still potent, they needed to get it to him. Sexton was like a traffic cone. He shouldn’t have been there.

riddles

Sexton is a bit like Roy Keane at United but united had a manager that realised his number was up. If he took the points at the start and a kickable penalty it would have put NZ on the back foot, something that didn't happen. That is on him - it can be sliced in many other ways but that is what it boils down to. Two Champions cups lost by a bulk of that team. When to move on from players is the challenge that has not yet been mastered.

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244263#Comment_121244263

I think this is spot on, personally. There really should be no excuses here. 17 wins in a row, relatively healthy team for this stage of the tournament, facing opponents we had beaten 5 out of the past 8, who are a flawed version of former All Black sides and bringing huge amounts of momentum following excellent performances / results against South Africa and Scotland. If not now, when?

Executing poorly ("poor" defined as to a lower standard than we had over the past year, or in the tournament to date) in THE critical game is classic Ireland Rugby. Conversely, New Zealand rocking up and finding a way to be more competitive at the breakdown than they had been in years is who they are as a rugby nation. Shrugging the shoulders and saying 'we'll get them next time' rings very hollow. And sure, it's done now so what's the point in crying? But trying to actually win a World Cup, even in a sport only played at a high level by ~10 teams, is as much a mental and spiritual test as it is a physical one. The standards and expectations need to be high. If it's okay to lose once you gave it a go, THAT becomes your reality.

I find the thoughts of Six Nations games in February very hollow and unappealing this morning. You need to believe it can lead somewhere when it really matters, or at least I do.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244338#Comment_121244338

You didn't answer the question.

CONSI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244336#Comment_121244336

no we took it into contact

yourdeadwright

As predicted pre tournament they bottled it when the pressure came

Aul Johnny had his most important penalty kick of his career & missed a pretty handy one at that ,

In the end of the day mentally they just couldn't do it , We just always fail to perform & that is the essence of bottle

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244321#Comment_121244321

That's a very difficult image to look at.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244324#Comment_121244324

We didn’t perform in some aspects like the line out particularly against South Africa either. We won that game but I think it was a game that they felt they should have won. There were lessons from the South Africa game but for some reason they weren’t picked up on which is baffling. That’s poor management.

Plenty to build on but the reason we didn’t go further this time was down to self inflicted errors and poor managerial decisions to rectify them.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244324#Comment_121244324

God, such an attitude. "Its just one game, not the end of times".

Except it was the end, the end of the line for Ireland in the WC yet again, and that one game was the one damn game that mattered.

I would trade every single one of those 17 games for a victory when it actually matters, but thats just me I guess. I don't much like moral victories.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244343#Comment_121244343

In competitions from the soccer world cup, to the FAI cup from the Ryder Cup to the GAA All Ireland, teams and supporters have to pick themselves up and go again.

Irish rugby will too.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244356#Comment_121244356

Another poster who has no answers as to how they would do it.

Probably because holes could be picked in your strategy too.

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244344#Comment_121244344

Yeah but this is elite sport. It is about achieving the result, in the end. Sexton was not operating close to his maximal capability when we really needed it, those are the tough calls in game.

And absolutely, you have to think about the process and not be completely results orientated. But a broader wider view of the scope of the defeat in a historical context is about how Irish rugby finds ways to feck it up. It's hard to argue Sexton should have been on the pitch at the end given his actual play in those moments. But this comes back to the world cup cycle as a whole, and our failure to attain comfort with other solutions at 10. We got the miracle runout - a healthy 38 year old who survived all 5 pool matches! But we still needed something else for 15 minutes, and we never developed it. You may find that analysis harsh, but it is what it is in the end.

nonyabidness23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244137#Comment_121244137

Many have very very low expectations of a great team then, i don't see how that could be anything but a failure.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244175#Comment_121244175

Correct me if I'm wrong but my perception of the difficulties in the line out in both SA and NZ games was that early days these teams were encroaching, not keeping the required separation. The refs let them away with this for a while and was enough to unsettle us from then on.

As for Porter and the scrum penalties, heard Shane Byrnes analysis that Porter was not a fault - he was simply overpowering his opposite number and that Barnes didn't care for this.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244175#Comment_121244175

We don't have a better team than New Zealand. If all 30 players were free agents for one year next year, that All Blacks team gets picked up faster and on higher salaries in the open market than the Irish team. Some of our world class players struggle when under pressure against top quality opposition, Josh Van Der Flier is world player of the year and failed to have any impact moments in the biggest game of his life. The best player in the world would be able to find a way to make game changing impact plays when its needed the most. Cane, who was lambasted on this forum solidly outplayed him. Doris was utterly and absolutely outclassed by Savea. It was the same with Frizell and O'Mahony. The pack as a whole lost collisions all night long. Exactly the same against South Africa, where we somehow found a way to win and it was even the same in the last 20 minutes vs Samoa, where we were lucky to win and it was the same in the second half of Leinster vs La Rochelle. This core group of the Irish pack struggle to match the power game of elite athletes. We also massively lack pace in our backs, we don't have any players who can go 80 metres down the pitch like Jordan. We have huge cohesiveness and skill in our backline but we can't deliver those gut punching breaks that the other teams in the top 4 can because we lack truly elite athletes.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244368#Comment_121244368

You actually think I am going to play that game with one of the sites most notorious contrarians?

Sure buddy, bear with me as I draw up a 120 point plan for you to dissect.

Ash.J.Williams

England will win the rwc

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244374#Comment_121244374

No, not harsh and it is reasonably expressed.

I would argue about us 'finding ways to **** it up'. That is harsh and unwarranted.

Had I been a coach going into that second half and faced with what we had to do, it would have come down to who I had faith in. And you cannot take on board somebody else's faith, you have to go with what you as a coach believe. I don't think Farrell will shirk the responsibility and the buck will stop with him.

I saw attempts to find a second choice right throughout the cycle too. It didn't happen and now we have to find one.

ScissorPaperRock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244405#Comment_121244405

It all depends on what's happening at the provinces as well. If these are the guys starting and playing the big matches at provincial level, it's hard for younger players to build the required experience and get prepared for test rugby.

With 4 professional teams, it won't be as easy for Ireland to make a quick transition.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244404#Comment_121244404

😁😁 oh dear. I think we have our answer there. Cheers.

Sleepy

It was definitely a game of tight margins: another 10 minutes on the clock, a bounce of a ball here or an extra few inches made there and Ireland would be in a semi-final. Hell, a better timed seeding of the groups and the two brilliant games we saw this weekend would have been the semis. That this abysmal English team are the only NH team still in the tournament (and only until their inevitable demolishing by SA next Saturday) shows just how farcical the draw was.

I make no claim to be any kind of expert and have never played the game competitively myself but one question I would ask is: when did we last see this Irish team play at anything near 100% of their potential? We scraped past South Africa in a game where we made a hell of a lot of mistakes and were let off by their poor kicking that day and none of the other teams we met in the group stages were strong enough to require the team to perform at anything like their best to beat them comfortably. What we came up against on Saturday was an All-Black team who rose to the occasion to play the best rugby they have in a couple of years while we were playing at 60-70% of our potential... There's an argument that over this historic run we've gotten too used to being able to win without playing at our best and a clinical New Zealand did their homework and effectively targeted all the right things to stop us from getting there.

ulsteru20s

I think we are going a bit crazy with the post mortem. NZ did not out power us. If anything they learned to kick a lot more and de emphasize power.

There is only one major mistake i think. Crowley should have been on at 65 and lets the chips fall from that decision where they may. Sexton was out on his feet and crowley is exactly the kind of 10 who makes things happen against tiring legs.

Other than that… i prefer baird to mccarthy. I thought we made odd choices and should have kicked ALOT more. But those are minor compared to the sexton/crowley call.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244396#Comment_121244396

Shane Byrne is talking through his hoop I'm afraid. Porter has been scrummaging illegally all tournament and Barnes was wise to it. Porter didn't adapt after the 1st penalty and we paid the price. Can't win a knockout game without a functioning set piece and our scrum and lineout misfired.

conquestscarer

All the critisms of not producing a back up 10 is fair enough, but for 3 out of the 4 years Carbery was cemented into that position. I'm a lot more critical at the lack of loosehead prop back up at this point in time. Unfortunately Kilcoyne wasn't good enough at this stage of his career to be the backup loosehead, if we had the equivalent to Bealham at Loosehead we could have taken him off but instead he had to go the full 75. I'd like to see Farrell be less conservative with his selections at this upcoming 6 nations.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121242960#Comment_121242960

Trolling.

roverjoyce

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244550#Comment_121244550

His hands are tied with central contracts to have massive changes

There should be no central contracts 2 years after the world cup,

Let any player go for 2 years and get their money and play in different countries, and let them be available for selection

It really is development until after the lions so what is there to lose, like why was POM given a central contract up to end of 2024

conquestscarer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244622#Comment_121244622

I don't think it needs massive changes, implementing players like Casey and McCarthy a bit more would probably cut it. There was no reason for McCarthy not to be involved against Tonga for example, could have helped keep the other 3 second rows fresh.

CONSI

Looking ahead, starting 15 for the 6 nations v France....

15 - Keenan

14 - Nash / O'Brien / Balacoune

13 - Ringrose

12 - Aki (with Hume on the bench)

11 - Hansen

10 - Crowley

9 - Casey (JGP on bench)

8 - Dorris (Coombes on bench)

7 - VDF (Hodnett on bench)

6 - ???

5 - Beirne

4 - Ryan

3 - Furlong (we need to get some props)

2 - Sheehan

1 - Porter (We need some props)

Bench - Hodnett/Coombes / O'Brien or Nash / JGP / Kelleher / backup 10 is a big issue (Byrne/Carberry) / props Loughman maybe, Bealam. Would it make any sense to look at Lowe as a center?

mascher8933

Its fine lines and Ireland could easily have been looking forward to a relatively easy semi final this weekend but it is what it is.

My opinion, he may have been a legendary player but OConnell needs to come in for a lot of criticism. The line out is his responsibilty and a huge attacking weapon for most teams, we badly struggled there and put us on the back foot when it matter

Going forward, hopefully Prendergast lives up to his hype because we have a big problem at 10, Crowley and Byrne are simply not international standard.

We need to develop depth at prop, especially at tight end as Furlong powers look to be waning, he certainly is the same player from a few years ago.

The rest of the team is ok, Aki will be a big loss when he leaves but we have enough quality coming through there.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121240223#Comment_121240223

In the modern game where you have yearly autumn and summer internationals between the top teams they very much should be regarded as friendlies. Whoever lifts the trophy won't give a flying fuk who won a "test" last Autumn.

The idea of it being an important match comes from the days when these things were rare.

And just for you GAA hating rugby fans. They are not called friendlies in GAA they are called challenge matches.