Rugby world cup post mortem

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245347#Comment_121245347

I like Crowley any time I’ve seen him and I think he’s been underused. If they were subbing the scrum half routinely in games including the big ones v SA and NZ, why not the out half? Too reliant on Sexton.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245419#Comment_121245419

They more or less sorted the lineout issue in the SA game.

I would like to look at the lineouts we lost to NZ, I would bet they were all because the NZ were closing the gap illegally, there isn't much that can be done when that is being ignored.

We needed experience in the last few minutes. Coach called it, in play and real time, because it was his job to do that. I am not going to second guess him using hindsight. It could just as easily have been the right call.

Again, such is elite sport.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245459#Comment_121245459

I’d agree with that. He should’ve been on for the last 10-15 mins, imo.

Was just making the larger point that, going forward, anyone coming to the conclusion that a 23-year-old Crowley is not the answer and not international standard, is being pretty premature.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245375#Comment_121245375

It is a bizarre point from Fintan again.

How many times have we heard it's a 'one score game'?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245452#Comment_121245452

I think they might do that if they had it to do again.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245048#Comment_121245048

I wonder why sexton was treated differently, its almost as if he was the best player in the world at one point, oh wait.

This revisionist history is pretty disgusting but no surprise there are knives out for sexton given all has achieved, nothing more irish than that.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245358#Comment_121245358

I guess you agree he was a success in France since you didn't make a reference to it?

None of the other players stepped up and took his jersey, that's not Sexton fault. Joey for instance was given so many chances, all of the options got game time during the last campaign and none stepped up. He has been the best 10 in Ireland for the past few years and why wouldn't Ireland pick him? we should always pick the best players for the international team.

He was left on the pitch because when Crowley was put on the week before he didn't do a good job and it fell apart. That's not Sexton fault, that's up to Crowley to perform.

You say people are not critical of Sexton yet the same nonsense has been posted for years all over social media and in the media who wanted Sexton out.

The guy is retired. He will be replaced now anyone, let's hope these people you think should have played instead of him are actually as good as you think they are.

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245498#Comment_121245498

Classical simantics

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245498#Comment_121245498

Classical semantics ! Anyone who has a basic understanding of rugby would know ,instinctively, what that ‘one score’ means - most especially the type of score needed and is the team behind going for a draw or a win. Eg (1) if you are 4 pts behind you need TO SCORE try to win . (2) if you are 2 points behind you only need to SCORE a penalty or drop goal to win. (3) if you are 6 points behind you need to SCORE a try and convert it to win. (4) if you are 3 points behind and would be happy with a draw then you need to SCORE a drop goal or slot over a penalty to draw.

The above, hopefully , fixes that SCORE argument!!!!!!

Clo-Clo

Also if you look back over all these reviews, it seems to be pick a player and lie a lot of the blame at that player

The 10 is one player in the team, no matter who is playing. Ireland have managed to put together a game plan which beat every major side in the World in the last few years. Yes they lost at qtr final but that doesn't mean we throw out the whole system and start again. We alos have a U20 team which made it to the finals.

The big changes need to happen at underage level to get more players. More options. Then we need to look at 4 provinces and see do we have enough options for players who might slip through the system.

The World Cup post mortem threads should be a discussion about that, how to progress rugby in Ireland on the back of the numbers watching etc. Not pick a player I don't like and slag him off.

Vinnie222

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245358#Comment_121245358

Difference is Sexton had a clause in his contract to be released for Irish training .Zebo hadn't

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245665#Comment_121245665

We are getting more players at underage and more options

What change would you suggest be made at underage level?

What would you do at provinces to help those who might slip through the system?

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245528#Comment_121245528

Yes, we will find out now at last.

Johnny got his last hurrah with the full 80 minutes, but at what cost one wonders? We’ll never find that out.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245695#Comment_121245695

That was the only difference was it? I’m sure something like that could have been arranged with Zebo but he wasn’t Johnny.

Vinnie222

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245782#Comment_121245782

Like what ? If a player is not going to be released from his club to train for the national side, you hardly expect him to represent his country .

OldRio

Good God. Did Sexton run over your dog?

We get it. You don't like him.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245832#Comment_121245832

That wasn't the reasoning though. The IRFU policy was to not select any player who took a contract from a French club or any club outside of the 4 Irish provinces. With the notable exception of Johnny Sexton of course. You're shifting the goalposts here.

MattressRick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244070#Comment_121244070

I didn't say New Zealand or South Africa don't try to win matches between world cups.

I said we pour more into those autumn internationals than they do. It's been shown back over the last ten or so years where we've never chosen a few players for experimental purposes, it only happens in the easier match against the likes of Fiji for example.

We celebrate those wins like we've won a trophy. The World Cup should be the focus, blood players in massive matches like those autumn internationals and big six nations matches.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245528#Comment_121245528

By the way your comments re Crowley and how it "fell apart" late on v Scotland are highly disingenuous. There were a load of substitutions made which meant Scotland ran in a couple of score when the game was over. Johnny is gone (not before his time) you can stop fighting on his behalf now.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245843#Comment_121245843

No, he was just left on for the full 80 minutes while out on his feet. He got his last hurrah but we're out.

mascher8933

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245885#Comment_121245885

Its kind of sad, how much hate you are trying to throw on Sexton.

It seems that you are the lone wolf on this and rightly so

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245919#Comment_121245919

Silly comment. I don't hate him and he had a great career, I just think he was left in place too long and along with other factors I think it cost the team in a very close game the other night.

mascher8933

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245939#Comment_121245939

You were attacking his time in France and the treatment he got too, you are not just going on about last nights game.

The last few minutes needed experience and the coaches made that call. Crowley was poor when he came on against Scotland. The majority would have taken Sexton for those last few minutes.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245358#Comment_121245358

It wasn't about Sexton. Hmmm, Farrell says to himself " Sexton is 38, I must select him, despite numerous other 10's being vastly better. It's about the other 10's, who couldn't get past Sexton.

Sexton would still be the best out half if he didn't retire.

ironingbored

We really needed a ferocious start (like France last night) to lay down a marker.

In all three games last year in NZ, we got off to a flyer. Had we scored a try inside the first 5 mins after tearing into them, then psychologically we'd have won half the battle. Hopefully, NZ players going "here we go again!". Instead, we ambled into the game and let them build up a 13 point lead. Was this down to fatigue, gameplan, NZ aggression.

In 2019, the gap was 32 points at the end with a 34-0 score line until we scored a try in the 69'.

In 2023, a 4 point gap having come back from the dead twice and the width of a hand which would have put us 3 pts up with 6 mins to play.

Can't understand why we didn't maul a few more metres to make sure of the grounding.

Who knows in 2027. With the domestic game in NZ/AUS struggling financially and RSA less invested in TRC, remains to be seen how many more world class NZ will be able to produce.

People dismissing the 6 Nations must have short memories. We have 4 Grand Slams in 140 years! There was a time where a win (home or away) against France wasn't even contemplated as a possibility. I had posters of the '82 and '85 Triple Crown on my bedroom wall.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245528#Comment_121245528

Crowley was perfectly fine when he came on vs Scotland. (He setup a try with a perfect kick). The game was over.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245962#Comment_121245962

I disagree. Not recently he isn't. Crowley should have been number 1 out half in my view with Sexton backing him up perhaps.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245957#Comment_121245957

Yes I agree, as I said earlier he could have been very useful with his experience coming on late in games when he was fresh. Like the way Conor Murray was used.

mascher8933

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245999#Comment_121245999

Seriously??

mascher8933

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246011#Comment_121246011

Very different with the situation with Murray, Murray was second choice behind a player who has been better than him.

Not the case with Sexton.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245980#Comment_121245980

I think France might regret that 'ferocious' start.

I think they had the tools to take SA apart if they hadn't decided on a free chaotic start. And I think it was them who set the tone of the game.

They thought they would blow SA away and it bombed on them.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246129#Comment_121246129

I disagree. I think over the last few years Sexton like Murray should have been cast in a supportive role, or certainly it should have been the case that others (like Crowley) were promoted more so that there wasn't the same reliance on Sexton as there had been in previous years when he was younger.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246120#Comment_121246120

Yeah. They're going to have to replace Sexton now anyway, I think that should have been done on a more phased basis over the last few years.

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245079#Comment_121245079

The SH proposal wouldn't have killed the Six Nations. It would have opened it up so that nations like Georgia get a shot from time to time, and jeopardy is introduced for the larger nations to avoid relegation. This is healthy and necessary for the growth of the game (a similar concept would be introduced to the SH Championship). Traditional dates and the Lions tour would have been maintained. You have pitched this in an entirely disingenuous fashion - that the SH are the ones running from change, when it is them bringing potential solutions to the table that are rejected out of fear by Unions like Scotland.

As for a single rule example or saying 'everyone should play the same season' - well weather is weather lad. The seasons (weather) alternate so the seasons (rugby) need to also. But give over telling me this is a reason the World Cup is unfair. Ireland had their holidays and preseason and were together as a group preparing for a couple of months leading up to Saturday. They kept winning and had beaten South Africa so the idea we are not on a level playing field due to the time of a year is a nonsense. They are just better than us when it counts, the SH / NH record across the history of the tournament speaks to that.

conquestscarer

Blaming Sexton is comical, clueless even. Not a single criticism of his game other than his age. The fact of the matter is we didn't speed up ruck ball the other night, our 8 forwards didn't do their job at ruck time and we had painfully slow ball. I'd be point at Van Der Flier and O'Mahony rather then Sexton because they got dominated in their matchups IMO.

The suggestion that Prendergast should be Leinster's first choice outhalf this season is also silly. I'm his biggest fan as a player but he has to physically develop a good bit before he starts big games, need to be patient with him and build him up gently. He is pretty clearly 3rd choice at Leinster at the moment, thats a huge leap from last year where he was 6th choice. It also means he will get a good bit of gametime this season which he can learn and develop from. If he manages to push himself of either of the Byrnes this season fair play but I think some patience is needed. The amount of criticism the guy got when our u20s were smashed was ridiculous.

Trampas

Will France think this World Cup was a failure? Will South Africa, England, New Zealand or Argentina treat it as a failure to the 3 who don’t win?

Farrell expecting he can win a World Cup starting mid 30’s year players every game will rarely work. Some bodies will not recovery fully in time for the next game. You need a squad and just didn’t seem we had the trust in the squad to change the starting line up to make sure players starting were fully ready to battle. That’s on Farrell and his team. Maybe just looking at the next game instead of World Cup was the reason not having that squad where he could pick a different team if needed be. Any on the borderline to make it next time I’d be having them as back up players and not starters. Need to start it now not months out

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246393#Comment_121246393

I don’t think anyone blamed Sexton solely for exiting the competition. A factor in us going out that he was struggling and not replaced is what some would suggest but don’t let that stop you using the usual gaslighting (suggesting others have said something in a way they actually didn’t) tactic when arguing with something you disagree with. It undermines any other points you make.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245980#Comment_121245980

I was very surprised that Kelleher broke off, after forcing them into giving away a penalty try the previous maul, they ought to have been staying tight and forcing the call. Thought it was a banker initially, as they were moving well towards the line

raclle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246886#Comment_121246886

Just before the break off it looked like Sexton had his arm out to go wide.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244913#Comment_121244913

Its interesting. It certainly wasn't a typical bottle job, down 13 points after 20 minutes and then roll over...

Would be very interesting for those in the camp, who have far more insight... like what the hell is uo with the scrum ? Loyalty to players, at rugby and soccer here , is there too much loyalty? Does it result in laziness at times from the first choice ?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245999#Comment_121245999

Crowley really only burst onto the scene this year. He showed his metal in matches against Leinster and Stormers this year.

However starting him would have been a huge call. However he should have been on with 15 minutes to go. Sexton was out on his feet at that stage.

Not only that he should have been considered to start against Scotland with Sexton rested for the NZ game. We knew the order in which the games were going to be played.

The over dependance on certain players was crazy. Take the bringing on of James Ryan at the end of the Scotland match. Had we other options. We only needed a bonus point against the Scots. Ya you want to keep momentum going but management of rotation is important

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121247567#Comment_121247567

Was James Ryan a factor?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121247603#Comment_121247603

Hard to know when he was not available. TBH I wound not be critical of either lock but rotation of players was an issue and these decisions highlights the lack of thinking around rotation.

The Scottish game was a particular bruising game

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245999#Comment_121245999

Perhaps? Like maybe drop him down to 3rd choice?

You're entitled to your view, but I suspect not a single coach or player in world rugby would agree with it. Take what you will from that, but I suspect that is why almost no one will take your views on Sexton in good faith.

threeball

I remember after we were dumped out of the last world Cup, O Gara, saying that we needed to forget about 6 nations etc and build for 4yrs time. By the time the 2nd six nations came round he was back pushing for a win. Its ingrained in the IRFU psyche, the scarcity mentality, win now, later might never come.

So there's no building towards the future. No real strength in depth. No real trust in the supposed back up players. We were the only team with decent prospects in the tournament who failed to rotate their squad and that alone is an indictment of the management and a receipe for failure in an attritional sport.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121247636#Comment_121247636

i didnt think henderson was that great tbh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121247655#Comment_121247655

right after the 2019 rwc, o gara suggested that if sexton were to keep playing then maybe he should move to being a bench player who could help bring on the younger options while being there to close out games and thus prolong his career. now, he also said JS would almost definitely not be happy to do that but it might be (have been) the best option all round

tbh it was my way of thinking at the time too but in fairness JS has put in some unbelievable performances since then so its hard to know

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121247655#Comment_121247655

No, I didn’t say that.

Why do some posters here insist on making stuff up and try to make out that others they disagree with are saying something that they actually didn’t? Seems to be a common theme with those who don’t like views that they disagree with. Unable to argue on what was actually said so just pretend that they said something more extreme and then argue on a false premise. Usual stuff and poor form.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245867#Comment_121245867

Ireland have blooded plenty of players during the AF era. He even has a history of giving time to players who aren't even first choice at their province - JGP. Other players he has brought in quickly, Hansen pretty much straight off the plane and Crowley has more Irish starts at 10 than he has Munster starts in the CC at 10.

Experimenting for the sake of experimenting is worthless and absolutely pointless if there isnt a desire to use the wider squad. The Irish coaching ticket clearly made the decision prior to the tournament that they weren't going to rotate. It explains some of their selections over the past few years and the WC squad itself and means that additional experimentation would have been of zero benefit.

That shortsighted unwillingness to rotate proven capable squad players is far more an issue than any 'experimentation' that didn't happen.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121247692#Comment_121247692

It's not hard to know. Sexton was one of our best players while we went on an unprecedented winning streak. Crowley wasn't in the picture 2 years ago.

I mean, AF gave chances to RB, HB, even Frawley. It's not like he didn't try! Carbery got lots of time but frankly just wasn't good enough. If anything he should be the perfect example of how picking a player and sticking with them doesn't necessarily make them good enough.

Sexton is (was 😭 ) just way, way better than everyone else.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121247705#Comment_121247705

Crowley should have been number 1 out half in my view with Sexton backing him up perhaps.

your actual words. So what did they mean? Because the only logical reading of that is that Crowley should have been starting 10 and maybe Sexton backing him up.