A Woke Society? **Mod Warning In Post #435**

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121359975#Comment_121359975

it's not informative to talk about percentages when the absolute figure is so low. That is just basic stats.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121354130#Comment_121354130

No

Trans women were using women's bathrooms waaay more than just a decade.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121359618#Comment_121359618

“Cornerstone of their soul”? Seriously man, lay off the Peterson.

Toxic masculinity is nothing to do with Marxists. They’re too busy indoctrinating people.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360031#Comment_121360031

I know, but legally they were allowed to from that point.

There is no issue with trans-women using women's bathrooms and the lack of prosecutions or complaints is proof.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121359563#Comment_121359563

The concept of toxic masculinity is used in academic and media discussions to refer to those aspects of hegemonic masculinity that are socially destructive, such as misogyny, homophobia and violent domination. These traits are considered "toxic" due in part to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. Socialization of boys sometimes also normalizes violence, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" about bullying and aggression.

Self-reliance and emotional repression are correlated with increased psychological problems in men such as depression, increased stress, and substance use disorders. Toxic masculine traits are characteristic of the unspoken code of behavior among men in prisons, where they exist in part as a response to the harsh conditions of prison life.

Other traditionally masculine traits such as devotion to work, pride in excelling at sports, and providing for one's family, are not considered to be "toxic". The concept was originally used by authors associated with the mythopoetic men's movement, such as Shepherd Bliss. These authors contrasted stereotypical notions of masculinity with a "real" or "deep" masculinity, which they said men had lost touch with in modern society. Critics of the term toxic masculinity argue that it incorrectly implies that gender-related issues are caused by inherent male traits.[1]

nachouser

Ah sure, which one of us here hasn't been site-banned for being sh*t-posters?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357747#Comment_121357747

What are you on about?

Are you saying trans people are weak and disabled?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358223#Comment_121358223

No

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360028#Comment_121360028

It is useful to talk about percentages when examining trends in data, that’s basic stats - that’s how it is determined that suicide rates among women haven’t actually flatlined as you suggested earlier, they’ve been trending upwards in the last decade, faster than the suicide rate among men.

What would be informative is recognising that for the vast majority of those men who die by suicide, their reasons are not toxic masculinity, seeing as the concepts identified as toxic masculinity act as a preventative factor against suicide, as opposed to being a contributing factor.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360043#Comment_121360043

Not really. Honestly that's silly. There is no legal right to enter or not enter a toilet. Legally has nothing to do with it.

Trans people existed long before 2015 and trans women used womens toilets long before 2015.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360134#Comment_121360134

If you really understood stats you would realise why a statistician would never do what you did unless he was intentionally try to deceive.

As to your assertion regarding toxic masculinity, just BS. The physchological evidence for a relationship between toxic masculinity and suicide is well established.

"Men account for approximately 75% of the one million annual suicide deaths worldwide. Emerging research indicates a link between suicide and men's active pursuit of hegemonic masculinity via emotional restriction. However, little is known of the continuum of suicidal men's emotional practice, and particularly how men mobilise emotions to actively pursue or resist hegemonic masculine ideals. This theorised life-history study aimed to explore the emotional lives of 18 Australian men who had attempted suicide. Findings indicate that men in this study experienced a range of emotions. However, during childhood, they learned that expressing emotions such as sadness reduced masculine standing, whereas expressing emotions such as anger through acts of violence could enhance masculine status. Although the gendering of emotions offered participants multiple avenues of action to pursue or contest masculine ideals, they remained vulnerable to suicide. For some men, it became impossible to conceal escalating feelings of distress. For other men, displays of anger and violence resulted in job loss, relationship breakdown or criminal conviction. Many participants indicated that suicide presented a means of ending painful emotions. Paradoxically, suicide could also become an alternative means of demonstrating masculinity, whereby the body became both the vehicle and object of violence."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33751613/

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360134#Comment_121360134

Sorry what?

”seeing as the concepts identified as toxic masculinity act as a preventative factor against suicide, as opposed to being a contributing factor.”

You’ll need to explain that one to me.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360256#Comment_121360256

What’s that, the no true statistician fallacy? 🤨

There was nothing deceptive about it. You made a wild statement about the characteristic of men who die by suicide. I demonstrated that your characterisation was way off. We agreed that suicide rates are higher among minorities who, by definition, are out of step with modern society. I also demonstrated that your characterisation wouldn’t apply to women, because we’re both aware it was a fairly scathing characterisation intended to demonise men who didn’t meet your standards.

Turns out men who promote toxic masculinity aren’t suffering to anything like the degree that people who don’t feel they fit into modern society are suffering.

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360006#Comment_121360006

It’s a pertinent point, obviously an inconvenient truth for you

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360294#Comment_121360294

The idea of teaching children to regulate their emotions and develop resilience goes against everything that some people who want to promote the idea of toxic masculinity rally against. It’s a pejorative term which is used to explain suicide rates among men, which is not borne out by the evidence when the characteristics of those who die by suicide are investigated.

K-9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360526#Comment_121360526

How can you say men with toxic masculinity or whatever aren't suffering like other sections?

How can you know that?

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360606#Comment_121360606

I’m trying to understand your point here. But I’m still struggling.

Developing resilience and regulating emotion are nothing to do with toxic masculinity. One aspect of toxic masculinity that causes suicide is repeated attempts to “regulate” emotion, that’s really just suppressing emotion and an inability to express one’s feelings to others.

One should never try to regulate their emotions. One should only ever regulate how they express them. It’s ok to be angry, and share with people you’re angry. It’s not ok to be angry and hit someone. Toxic masculinity results in violence, learning to express yourself doesn’t.

I’ve heard it said that depression is anger turned inwards. That’s what can drive men to suicide if they don’t learn the tools to deal with their feelings.

Shoog

It's obvious that some people here are advocate of a certain type of hard man masculinity. Good luck with that.

I used to suffer from toxic masculinity, an inheritance from my father, and I can tell you it did me no favours and I am mighty glad that I had councilling to change my toxic behaviour. If I hadn't I doubt I would still be married and might not even be still alive.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358245#Comment_121358245

do you think its ethical to give trans related hormones and do surgical operations on under 18's?

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121361253#Comment_121361253

Why do you pick 18?

In Ireland the age for hormone therapy is 16. Do you have a problem with that?

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358208#Comment_121358208

What medical interventions are happening to kids in Ireland? Name one

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360529#Comment_121360529

It’s a pertinent point. But so was the rest of the post, I assume you agree with the rest if you don’t address it from now on.

The truth is never inconvenient. You presenting your opinions as the truth is far more inconvenient for you than me.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121361281#Comment_121361281

ethical?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40033028.html

"lmost 80 Irish children have been sent by the HSE to England for assessment over confusion about their gender identity over the past three years.

Six out of ten children referred back to Children’s Health Ireland Hospital at Crumlin receive psychosocial support while 40% receive medical treatment such as puberty blockers.

Some 46 children went through the Treatment Abroad Scheme to the Gender Identity Development Services at Tavistock Clinic in London in 2018 but that number more than halved last year (2019) to 20 children."

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121361285#Comment_121361285

When men tended to express more masculine characteristics back in the day, suicide rates were lower, so much for “ toxic masculinity “ being the root cause of suicide

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121361239#Comment_121361239

The former sinner converts to evangelism

nothing new there

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121361491#Comment_121361491

It's already been pointed out that for religious and cultural reasons suicide in Ireland was vastly underreported, and then there are the 10's of thousands who committed suicide by drink.

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121359593#Comment_121359593

You were not asking me for a definition but apologies if I step in anyway as it's a term that passingly interested me over the years.

It is certainly a term that confuses a lot of people and divides discourse. It is one of those terms that you can ask 10 people what it means and get 10 completely different answers. Even in the last few posts one user suggests it was coined 100 or so years ago. Perhaps it was - though it is personally the first time I have heard that. Pretty much every article I have read suggests it was coined around the area of 1980. Specifically by someone called Shepard Bliss. Which if nothing else - is a cool name.

Bliss apparently "sought to separate the negative traits of men from the positive". Which for me is doomed from the start. It is as nonsensical to me as trying to separate emotions into "good" emotions and "bad" emotions. I personally do not believe any such thing is possible. Emotions many people consider as "bad" such as Anger and Hatred and Jealousy can actually be very good things and positive motivators. Emotions many people would consider "good" like Love can be deranging and damaging. No emotion in and of itself is good or bad. What the emotion does to you - or leads you to do - is.

Similarly I do not think any trait of men or masculinity are good or bad. And it is a nonsensical exercise to try to divide them as such. Aggression for example is not automatically a bad thing. Especially as the definition of it is rather dilute and general. One definition for example is "hostile or violent behavior or attitudes toward another; readiness to attack or confront." The first half of that definition for sure is not great. The second however is something I try to instill in my own children male or female. A general stance of aggression in life is for me a good thing. I strive to have "aggressive" children.

So I myself have abandoned for the most part using the term "Toxic Masculinity" or "Toxic Femininity". However when I did use it - I was using it in line with those people who defined it as the expectation masculinity puts on a person socially or traditionally. As Oxford put it "a set of attitudes and ways of behaving stereotypically associated with or expected of men, regarded as having a negative impact on men and on society as a whole."

That is certainly toxic. If you are expected to act in a certain way - or refrain from acting in a certain way - solely because you are male then that is toxic. If some random person slaps your wife on the ass and you are expected to go at him swinging fists rather than simply move on - or if you are upset and are expected to push it down and never been seen to cry or express emotion - or if you are expected to be the earner in a household rather than choose to be a stay at home father while your partner goes out to work - or if you really want to be a nurse and you don't because it is a "womens" profession - or you are expected to be the one to solely enforce discipline in your children - or anything else at all then that is toxic. The moment you feel you have to do something or not do something for no other reason than your gender/sex is "male" then that is potentially a problem and what I would have called "Toxic masculinity".

I myself to be honest do not feel like a "man". I never really have. Every trait I am proud of in myself - every trait I try to instill in my children - every activity I engage in for myself or with my children - are entirely separate from gender or sex and are just expressions of who we are as people. I strive to be a good person. To make my children good people. And what I teach them or try to do with them I do equally to explore who they are and I go with that. And if they are into or not into something that is traditionally associated with a particular sex/gender then so be it. From almost toddler age onward I explored everything with them from cooking and dancing and acting and art - to fighting and hunting and guns and DIY and science. And they each find their own groove which is great.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121361499#Comment_121361499

I personally don't give a flying **** what you do with my comments. They are here to illustrate a point. I am a better man for shedding toxic masculinity and you can be to.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360919#Comment_121360919

Because if they were, the concepts some people choose to identify as toxic simply wouldn’t be as prevalent as they are, because it would be those people would be taking their own lives, and not the people who one would least expect to be taking their own lives in what Shoog refers to as modern society. It’s basically one of the many paradoxes of suicide prevention.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121361234#Comment_121361234

Developing resilience and regulating emotion are the antithesis of the whole ‘boys don’t cry’ concept. Nobody cries when they don’t have a reason to, boys or girls!

I’ve heard it said that depression is anger turned inwards. That’s what can drive men to suicide if they don’t learn the tools to deal with their feelings.

I don’t know who originally said it either, but if it works for you that’s great. I don’t agree with the sentiment, nor do I agree with the correlation being made, because it implies that rejecting what you call toxic masculinity is the means by which people will find satisfaction in their lives. It’s a bit like Blindboy claiming men need Feminism - very much like he’s identified a problem, and wouldn’t you know he’s got the solution! 🙄

https://youtu.be/vWUDQdiFB7A?si=7uzIMjkCUfnG05gR

The plastic bag on his head doesn’t help 😒

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121361491#Comment_121361491

Were they? According to this numbers rose because of population growth, but rates dropped.

https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/suicide-deaths-have-risen-by-20000-over-past-30-years-around-the-world/