New World Rugby Calendar and World Cup format

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286717#Comment_121286717

Yeah I'd love nothing more than to see some T2 nations put their money where their mouths are and organise tours to the Southern Hemisphere in July or invite them to play them in November, like the others do. But instead they'd rather cry about not being included in the 6N, so meh to them

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286785#Comment_121286785

The 6N and RC form a part of this stupid Nations League concept

But they clearly don't from every description given so far. Unless you have proof to the contrary that nobody else has heard of which you are free to post here

Pudsy33

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287124#Comment_121287124

They do, the points accumulated from the 6n carry across to the Wolrd League. Where are they supposed to fit 5 extra games into the calendar if we had to play each 6n team again?

Edit: I'm seeing conflicting reports on this now. So we play the 6 SH teams over a year and are ranked by how we do against them against the 6n teams.

minitrue

I certainly found more reports saying the 6N and RC games will count towards this than I did that the 6N/RC teams couldn't be relegated (I only read that here) but I don't see how that could work without adding the additional teams into the RC, likely making it mirror the 6N format going forward.

I'll make my prediction here, the 11th and 12th teams will be Japan and the USA. If South Africa manage to beat Samoa tomorrow they'd nearly be able to swing calling it a unification across the men's and women's games but the Canadian and Argentinian women refuse to play ball, I wouldn't faint at them still trying to spin that though.

Then all that will be left for them to do is figure out how to schedule every tier 1 team to play in Saudi Arabia every year.

I actually like the concept of a regular global international league structure but the devil is in the detail and this one is already full of devil before we know all the detail. It seems perverse they managed to vote on something which appears to either be totally up in the air or at least they weren't able to publish the structure (and it doesn't appear to have leaked). I wonder just what exactly was voted on and what was just made up for an announcement and is yet to actually be decided/approved.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287124#Comment_121287124

To be fair, I doubt (say) Portugal would have the shekels to fund a tour of New Zealand on a whim, I daresay they can just about keep heads above water. Spain played Argentina in Madrid before the WC but IIRC they couldn't get their main players released? So some are trying to invite bigger nations to play.

There's barely a country where rugby is the main sport at the best of times, and I speculate the T2 nations are borderline hand to mouth. Can't imagine they'd get a fair deal trying to organise a tour of any repute.

B2021M

Just curious as to why some people are writing off Wales as a top tier team? Surely all teams go through cycles? Did they not win a GS four years ago and a triple crown two years ago?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287124#Comment_121287124

Yeah I'd love nothing more than to see some T2 nations put their money where their mouths are and organise tours to the Southern Hemisphere in July or invite them to play them in November, like the others do. But instead they'd rather cry about not being included in the 6N, so meh to them

They can't afford it and T1 nations refuse to tour to them where they would actually make money. The problem is not that they aren't inviting teams to visit - the PI teams in particular are constantly doing so

But they clearly don't from every description given so far. Unless you have proof to the contrary that nobody else has heard of which you are free to post here

Fair. It does appear they don't, but they did in the original concept when it was first mooted. It's not very clear.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287302#Comment_121287302

I dont think it's too much of a stretch to group Wales with Italy tbh.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287302#Comment_121287302

I'd question the union and its structure than the existing team. There are institutional and structural problems that don't show Welsh Rugby as being in especially rude health, and there have been a few noted blips against Italy and Georgia to underline a wobble in overall quality.

And it may be heretical to say around these parts I dunno, but what value has the Triple Crown these days in any case?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287302#Comment_121287302

2.5 years ago now, and 3 years by the time the 6N rolls round. It's a long time ago

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287124#Comment_121287124

The top. sides have to do more.

I dont understand why you are putting everything on the tier2 sides to force change when it should be the top sides doing more especially when so many of these tier 1 sides have major issues at home.

We dont know if these unions havent tried get more games in summer/november but are they not entitled to ask about their exclusion from the top european competition and all that inclusion in that would bring?

d

B2021M

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121288068#Comment_121288068

I'd tend to agree re the value of a triple crown but I wouldn't think Fiji or Georgia would win one either if they were in the 6N.

Italy have never beaten Scotland, Ireland and England in the same year.

I was just questioning if it is certain that Wales are in terminal decline and not a top 8 team? They also won a GS in 2005 and went on to lose to Fiji in 07 WC so there have been highs and lows before.

OldRio

The WRU are in serious problems. On the field and off. Teams have shed lots of players over the summer. Attendances are poor. Soccer seems to be the main sport in what was once a Rugby dominated country.

Only recently amateur teams were fined for payment to players. That's only the tip of the Iceberg.

Podge_irl

I think the WRU and the professional game in Wales is in terminal decline, but the National Team is streaky as all hell and I would never write them off in a competition. They are losing a lot of players that they don't have ready made replacements for though and I think their "up" years are going to be fewer and farther between.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121288953#Comment_121288953

As others have pointed out a lot has changed in Welsh rugby since that quoted Up & Down. Both institutionally and culturally, rugby there is on the wane and there's no real sense of a solid plan to arrest that drop. I think their baseline is strong enough that they'll probably just rot in mediocrity for the medium term, but any more bumps in the road and it might get worse. We'll see if 2022 & their losses to Italy and Georgia become a norm, or an outlier.

moycullen14

Given the increased importance and profile of the RWC, are the Lions are becoming a bit of an anachronism?

Are we not at the point where we (Ireland) don't need or want anyone's help to compete with NZ, SA and AUS? There's always been a whiff of inferiority off the Lions. That said, the legacy and the history of the Lions is massive, it would be a shame to see it go but time marches on.....

Is there even any point of the next tour to Australia? At the moment each of the 4 nations would easily beat AUS on their own.

I guess money talks.....

OldRio

Many many years ago it was exciting to watch the tours of the Lions. Tours to far flung destinations you had only seen on maps.

Nowadays you couldn't pay me to watch a match. From a pure rugby point of view, utterly meaningless.

Podge_irl

The sanzar teams are fairly dependent on the income from the tours. They're really not like any other tour from that perspective.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121288244#Comment_121288244

The top. sides have to do more.

Why is it always the Tier 1 sides? Why can't Tier 2 sides do more, just like the Tier 1 sides historically did?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287249#Comment_121287249

There was a time when Ireland toured the southern hemisphere and NZ toured Europe on the basis of breaking-even. Where was Portugal/Georgia/Spain when there was feck all money to be made from rugby? Conveniently silent

Anybody could look at Argentina, Italy and France as good examples of former Tier 2 sides that took a few risks and were rewarded with the status they hold today. Nothing stopping Portugal from doing something similarly risky and getting rewarded for it

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121290514#Comment_121290514

Not sure what the "conveniently" is meant to infer here? I think you're overselling the capacity of these Unions to somehow magic an international tour, or wield clout to make it worth the SH teams coming to their countries (though like I said, Argentina did play a pre-WC match in Madrid); I'm sure their lower status breeds a certain ceiling of imagination, but you can't compare countries that have always had a solid rugby and codified culture with those that don't - and with the coffers to match the disparity.

And your 3 examples are all teams who made the change in status during the amateur era; think it's fair to say that standards, conditioning and most importantly - costs - have increased beyond those earlier eras when even a modicum of organisation and talent tangential to professionalism could yield results. And in the case of Italy, there are plenty of people who make the argument they're barely above Tier 2, depending on the weather or their mood.

Reads like you're trying to "blame" Tier 2 for their own situations? Weird, but it's way more complicated than that IMO. I can't find the article but it was speaking to folks about Romanian rugby in light of their terrible WC showing: the basic thrust was that while yes, ostensibly Romania had a "professional" league, it only meant the players were being paid to play rugby - not that it was a career, or automatically conferred a greater degree of ability or training. And in a country like Spain or Portugal where Soccer is the dominant sport by a distance? I imagine coffers are just as slim there.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121290461#Comment_121290461

Because the rugby championship and 6 nations tier 1 countries have all the money and all the political power to enact change. i really didnt think that needed to be spelt out....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121290514#Comment_121290514

Georgia/Spain/Portugal and any others were being ignored likeq they always were.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121290461#Comment_121290461

What are they supposed to do? Hold the Irish rugby team at gunpoint until they agree to play a match?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121291139#Comment_121291139

Is that how NZ got the Irish tour last year?

Regarding the whole T2 blaming etc I'd argue the T2 nations simply weren't interested in rugby up until recently when the money became good, meaning they want a slice of the pie without contributing to the ingredients to use baking terms

ScissorPaperRock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121291317#Comment_121291317

I think you should reconsider that argument. Fiji, Samoa, Tonga weren't interested in rugby until recently? They haven't contributed to the sport?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121291335#Comment_121291335

No, not at all, those teams were perfectly happy to contribute to New Zealand's national team for many a year and then question why they're not highly regarded once professionalism rolls around

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121291354#Comment_121291354

You are just showing a complete lack of knowledge of ruqby beyond a tiny number of countries.

And were these countries happy? Think swiwi, yeah right and the other kiwis here could give a better response on this.

But you are talking abosolute nonsenseq.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121291317#Comment_121291317

No, because they don't need to because NZ willingly and happily play matches against Ireland.

The issue is not that the T2 nations haven't tried, they are constantly screaming out for matches. The T1 nations REFUSE TO PLAY THEM

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121291507#Comment_121291507

And they refuse to play them even when Tier 2 nations offer the same financial incentives as the Tier 1 nations do?

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121291533#Comment_121291533

And from whence is this money supposed to come from to match T1? Are you aware of nations having put up the cash then refused? Like I said, you're determined to blame T2, and now pinning them as gold diggers? It's only their fault it seems, Bill Beaumont blameless in all this.

ScissorPaperRock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121291533#Comment_121291533

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're being deliberately obtuse here.

They obviously, simply, don't have the financial resources that T1 nations do. This is the very reason T1 nations have been able take advantage of their talent for generations.