Ventilation with solid fuel stove

hydrus21

Hi all.

I recently had a quote to have the cavity walls pumped.Because I have a solid fuel stove in the living area I have to have a 5" wall vent to the outside and all the windows in the property to have trickle vents fitted otherwise I do no qualify for a grant.

Can anyone confirm or clarify this?

Thanks

C3PO

Not sure about the grant but got a stove installed in my new home on Monday and the installer insisted on cutting a vent into the wall - regulatory requirement apparently!

hydrus21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283922#Comment_121283922

Thanks for your reply.

Can i ask what output (KW) your stove was rated at?

listermint

All stoves require ventilation. Rather than a requirement, (which it is) you should view it from a death and safety perspective.

Additionally if you've no airflow the stove simply will not work well what so ever.

Ventilation for the rest of the house is a no brainer for moisture reduction and fresh air flow. Additionally it's a requirement for any SEAI grant work. Often an inspector will check after install to see of Ventilation is in place.

Calahonda52

Am familiar with the hole in the wall but I would ask for the rules re trickle vents

C3PO

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283995#Comment_121283995

6kw

ShadowSA

Imagine all the heat escaping out when your stove is not in use, does the trickle vent have a cover so that you can stop the air flow?

dathi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121296536#Comment_121296536

the room with the stove must have a vent which is permanently open in other rooms the vent whether it is a hole in wall or trickle vents in windows can be fitted with a cover that can be closed

hydrus21

Solid fuel burners and conventional flued gas appliances require dedicated air supply for correct combustion. I get that.

I dont get the requirements for trickle vents(open or closed) in all other parts of the house.

I want to get cavity wall insulation done to reduce the heat loss. Putting trickle vents in all the windows is the opposite of what i'm trying to acheive.

bfclancy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121298000#Comment_121298000

because a house requires ventilation, prevents damp, moldness, bad air quality etc,

hydrus21

Sorry but I'm missing something here.

I want to increase the thermal integrity of the outside walls.

The bathroom and kitchen have effective extractor fans and windows that open.

I don't get mould or condensation now so why would I get it later?

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121298323#Comment_121298323

It's regs. The SEAI will not pay out a grant without proper house ventilation.

Yes the cheapest option is a hole in the wall second cheapest is trickle vents in windows.

Appropriate ventilation is vital not just an extractor in the bathroom.

The little understanding people in this country have around this subject contributes to the high cases of respiratory issues on this island.

Water John

Friend of the daughter had a lucky escape with solid fuel stove. Was chatting on a what's app group and casually asked how could she stop the monoxide alarm that was annoying her. Think she was already a bit fuzzy. They told her to get out straight away. She went to the parents house and because of her clothes and how much she had inhaled she set off the alarm there too. Ventilation is vital, not sure if trickle vents must now be open always.

hydrus21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121298517#Comment_121298517

Ok. Thats it then. "It's regs".

Your trickle vents are going to ventilate or create heat loss depending on weather conditions.

Anyone remember going into a stuffy room and opening a window?

Water John

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121298844#Comment_121298844

No, it's safety.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121298844#Comment_121298844

I don't have trickle vents.

Being particularly interested in the holistic operations of my house and comfort I installed MHRV.

I was fairly certain you didn't take my response seriously which is why I included the bit about people in this country haven't a clue, thus is the high rate of respiratory issues. Seems I was accurate.

hydrus21

Some context.

The property is on an exposed site with plenty of fresh air.

I'm not aware of anyone in the community with respiratory issues .

Are you filtering air because of you locality?

Madd002

Built our house 17yrs, ago engineer came out said wheres vents in walls I said no way had them in house I was renting had to tape all up as so much heat was escaping, I had trickle vents in all windows instead so he was happy enough, had house pumped in 08, didn't do anything, input boiler stove in 09, cosyboarded lower rooms in 15, put double sided stove where we knocked into sunroom 6yrs ago and got spray foam in attic 2 yrs ago, house's lovely and toasty but with all these mods, we are starting to get condensation inside windows so leave one or two trickle vents open all the time now.

Water John

At least everyone be sure to have operating carbon monoxide alarms.

3d4life

Some stoves in some circumstances can support external air input ( i.e. use outside air rather than air inside your house )

This ( long winded ) page paints the picture ( not very well IMO )

https://www.directstoves.com/resources/what-is-an-external-air-kit-for-a-wood-burning-stove/

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121299043#Comment_121299043

I'm astonished people think they should live in a sealed box.

Also I'm not astonished governments have to set regulations to save people from themselves.

I've installed a heat recovery system to maintain good air refresh rate and recovery heat back into the house from the existing air. It's unbelievable sensible for the climate in this country.

380,000 people have asthma 1 in 13. 1 in 10 kids.

Opening windows in this day and age of more sealed homes with better building standards is nonsense.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121298323#Comment_121298323

You would get mould or condensation later because you're increasing the thermal integrity of the outside walls.

Mould and condensation is caused by moisture within the air, and is based on a balance between heating, insulation and ventilation. You don't get mould or condensation now because those three things are currently balanced. If you're increasing the insulation in the walls, which will also mean your heating requirements have now changed (as you shouldn't require as much heating to maintain a comfortable temperature), the ventilation also needs to be adjusted. This is done by providing enough background ventilation to provide adequate air changes and reduce moisture in the air.

It's "the regs" in the sense that it's based on enough scientific research and that expert advice deems it to be necessary to the point that the government mandate it. Insulating the walls solves one of your issues. Providing ventilation is required to prevent a different issue.

FJMC

The stove requires combustion air to function. You can get an external kit that provides air directly to the stove from outside so you do not require a vent in the room?

Although I thought the vent requirement only applied to stoves above 5kW?

F

dathi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121331259#Comment_121331259

Room sealed appliance

: appliance whose combustion system is sealed from the room in which

the appliance is located and which obtains air for combustion from a ventilated uninhabited

space within the premises or from air outside the premises and which vents the products of combustion directly to

open air outside the premises

that's the definition of a room sealed system taken from the building regs Tgds part J heat producing appliances . it clearly says that the system must be sealed from the room. with a stove even one with an external air supply the home owner can close the dampeners and leave the door open to the room when lit allowing CO gasses into the habitable room.

if you are trying to argue that you dont need a vent because of external air supply then you have to remember you must also comply with TGDS part F ventilation which will require a room vent or mechanical ventilation in the room

FJMC

Sorry - it was whether you needed a specific vent / additional vent for combustion air for the appliance to work.

The combustion air vents can get quite large - more than a window trickle vent - if they are required, depending on the fire size.

I don't think wood burning stoves can be qualified as a sealed appliance - but it was my understanding that they didn't need an additional vent for combustion air if below 5kW output?

F

Sconsey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121299397#Comment_121299397

Latest study I could find (2012) does not suggest Ireland's asthma case numbers are exceptional compared to rest of Europe. Not great but far from the worst. Maybe our stats have declined in the last ten years.

https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2458-12-204/tables/1

dathi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121332726#Comment_121332726

taken from building regs TGDs part J

Table 1: Air supply to non-room sealed solid fuel appliances

Any room or space containing an appliance (other than a room sealed appliance) should have a permanent ventilation opening of

free area of 550mm2 per kW of rated output but in no case less than 6,500mm² where air permeability is greater than 5.0m³/(h.m2), or

6,500mm² + 550mm² per kW of rated output above 5kW where air permeability is less than 5.0m³/(h.m²

all appliances but extra ventilation need when its above 5kw

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121298323#Comment_121298323

How is your house currently ventilated (excluding kitchen s d bathroom). If it’s not, it’s non compliant. SEAI won’t issue grants if the house is not compliant.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121299043#Comment_121299043

How does the wonderful fresh air gets into your house? You don’t know anyone with asthma?

Most old houses in the countryside and smelly. The fresh air outside does not help.

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297525#Comment_121297525

Do you know the thought process in the regulations? Why cant mechanical ventilation be providing this ventilation? I was told by MVHRV guy that MVHRV would be enough

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121299816#Comment_121299816

Ventilation requirements based on scientific research?, not so sure. they make many crude assumption in a size fits all approach. They assume windows are not opened. Adding insulation does not increase the risk of mould per se. It is more to with the case that after insulation, the room may now as humid as before but also warmer and thus carrying more water in the air.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342137#Comment_121342137

A mechanical system can provide air to a stove. Prior to MHRV, fans supplying air to a stove was about the only mechanical ventilating you seen in domestic Ireland. In order for MHRV to supply air to a stove, it has to have that ability designed into it. Not sure why you think it can't.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342166#Comment_121342166

Yes ventilation requirements are based on scientific research. We need air to survive, I wouldn't have thought that was controversial. Using stove in unvented rooms has literally killed people.

There is no assumption that one side fits all. There is no assumption that windows are not opened. Seems like you are making the incorrect assumptions tbh.

Adding insulation changes the dew point within the fabric. Which absolutely does impact the risk of interstitial condensation. As does airtightness.

Adding insulation doesn't actually change the temperature. It changes the energy required to reach a temperature. In a situation that controlled by thermostat, there would be no change to the air temp not the humidity. But risk of interstitial condensation might occur. You are thinking of morning condensation on cold walls, that is not the only type.