Ireland Under-20 2024 Team

El Vino

England already have a 6 Nations Squad member from last years U20s - Cunningham South.

pickarooney

And France have 2.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824813#Comment_121824813

2017 was a bumper year, iirc. Boyle, Coombes, Stochale, Larmour, Nash, Dowling and Tadg McElroy? Can't remember any others...

Some years a better than othets.

FrannoFan

Posted elsewhere, Leinster academy 2013

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121825955#Comment_121825955

Frawley, Tommy O'Brien, Lyttle, Doris, Kelleher, Fineen Wycherley, Marcus Rea.

Stockdale was u20 in 2015 and 2016 I think. Keenan, Shane Daly, Porter, James Ryan, Connors and Deegan were in that 2016 side too. And Terry Kennedy the 7s star.

They seem to be pretty good at recognising talent early. The lads who play u20 when they're u19 tend to be real standout players.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823995#Comment_121823995

Have gone through this before but I think people get weirdly invested in and overrate young players. They get a huge amount of hype from people who have followed them through their underage careers and have made themselves emotionally invested in their careers.

If you go back through recent years of World Rugby U20 players of the year, the success levels of the winners at senior level is very poor. From 2015-2019 (it wasn't awarded 2020-22), the only winner who actually earned a senior test cap is Max Deegan and he has hardly gone on to have a stellar career. Even the nominees contain multiple guys whose names wouldn't be recognised by many. Tevita Li, Jonah Placid, Gabriel Ibitoye (nominated twice), Harry Malinder, Jordan Olowofela. A few of lads no longer play top flight or at all.

Ntamack is the stand out by far as someone who has actually become a test regular and was nominated. Then there are a couple of guys who have been regularly involved in test squads like Akira Ioane and Fraser McReight for Australia and Hendrikse for SA but none are in their 23.

U20 level is such a hit and miss barometer for guys going on to a higher level. We had someone like Jordan Joseph barrelling through guys at U20 level and then being absolutely anonymous at senior level when he couldn't do that. There have been guys at U20 level for Ireland that looked a cut above but went nowhere. Nick McCarthy was a two time U20 player and captain in his second year. Alex Kendellan (still loads of time for him) looked the best player on the field in most games he played but has found things much harder so far.

Then we've the great Irish team of 2016. Four of that squad went on to be in the Irish RWC squad last year. JOB and Keenan were in our 23 against NZ and nobody was talking about them at the time at all as future internationals. JOB didn't make the starting team in 2016. The hype was almost exclusively about James Ryan, Max Deegan and Jacob Stockdale with Porter getting some mentions but not nearly to the same extent. Will Connors was barely acknowledged.

pickarooney

Jonathan Joseph or Jordan Joseph?

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826704#Comment_121826704

Jordan! Edited now to prevent further confusion.

Locke_Lamora

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826704#Comment_121826704

Jordan Joseph. French 8, played 3 years at u20 level

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826667#Comment_121826667

This. JJ Hanrahan was going to turn Irish rugby upside down.

pickarooney

Little bit of cherry picking in the lists of junior player of the year, in fairness. Aaron Cruden, Julian Savea, George Ford and Handré Pollard have all won it while Garry Ringorose, Ardie Savea, Sam Cane, Romain Ntamack and Will Jordan have been nominated. Some others are middling professionals, some have disappeared completely. About what you'd expect.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826869#Comment_121826869

Yup, they did but most of those are a bit further back (a decade ago and further) and 5 of those 9 are from one country that had an incredible development run which hasn't been close to the same levels since then.

And these are supposed to be the very best in the world in that age bracket. I think it's safe to think that the best 3-4 guys in the world of a certain age group should go on to have very strong professional careers including at test level.

From 2008-19 there were 46 players nominated for the U20 WPOTY. 24 of those guys have gone on to be capped at test level. But that drops to 12 if we discount guys who are on single digit caps (which in itself includes one or two who declared for tier 2 nations when they didn't get a call for their nation of birth). Of those 12, there are guys who are not in their nation's 23 or would even have gone to the RWC last year.

So, from the guys who were seen as they very best in that year, it's about a 25% success rate for guys who go on to be significant test players. To me, this points to the idea that U20 level is just not a great indicator of how guys will transition to top level rugby. There are as many and more who come from under the radar to be top level players in senior rugby. Of the current Irish team, guys like Beirne, Sheehan, McCarthy Keenan and VDF weren't stand out performers at all at underage levels but are now amongst our most important performers.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826667#Comment_121826667

You're not talking about Prendergast though right. That's different.

Just looking through some of the recent U20's squads. It will be hard to top the 2019 group for the amount of pros that came out of it.

Of the 40 man squad, 17 have made 25+ appearances for a province. 28 of the 40 received a provincial cap. Those 28 have 909 combined appearances.

4 have received international caps. Baird (18), Casey (15), Healy (7), Byrne (3).

pickarooney

I didn't know there was a third Scannell brother (and that they're cousins of Jack O'Sullivan)!

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827096#Comment_121827096

Yeah, at best it's an educated guess at potential top-level players but there's no accounting for injury, dedication, other professional opportunities, late development, good players coming in batches in the same position or, one of the main ones - massive child with medium talent becomes average adult.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827159#Comment_121827159

Yep, he didn't get into the Munster academy and left for Biarritz. Played 2 games, went out on loan to Stade Lagonnais, played 11 times there (according to Wikipedia). He's back in Ireland now playing for Cork Con.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827179#Comment_121827179

Pretty much. But we'll still have people very year getting far too excited about lads who are just leaving childhood. It happens without fail. There are guys that you look at and think they're just a different level in terms of their vision, skills etc. and are hugely likely to make the grade. But I also see every year people harping on about guys who are going to be great and they fall off the radar entirely by the time they're approaching their mid twenties.

In Leinster, I recall guys like Hugh O'Sullivan, Brendan Macken, Conor Gilsenan and Jordan Coghlan all had a serious hype machine behind them and went nowhere really (although HOS is actually managing to forge a career for himself now having 13 appearances for Newcastle this season). There are similar situations in other provinces with guys being hyped up beyond their abilities every season. I'll remain ever convinced that the worst thing that ever happened to JJ Hanrahan was being nominated for WPOTY and a huge amount of expectation and pressure being placed on him overnight.

typhoony

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827096#Comment_121827096

I'd say if you watch the games that they played in there would definitely be clues to their potential, McCarthy for example wasn't a starter in the backrow but was a year younger for the u20's. I remember seeing him come on as sub in a few games and thinking at the time he had a bit of sparkle to him, i think the following years u'20s was affected by covid so we didn't get to see him shine. There are definitely a few that fly completely under the radar, connors is a good exampke

Locke_Lamora

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121828863#Comment_121828863

I could be wrong but I remember Will Connors being injured a fair bit and missing the jwc. I think he was always quite highly rated, just didn't quite get the opportunity to show it, which only lends to the idea that assessing players at that age isn't straightforward.

If anyone watches the NFL it is easy to see how difficult scouting can be. They pour millions more than rugby can afford into scouting/analytics/statistics and they are assessing players playing several years at college (which, despite the name, is an incredibly professional setup in itself). They get 'can't miss' prospects wrong all the time and some of those players don't make it to a second contract even though they were drafted ahead of hundred of gifted athletes in one on the most rigorous setups in sport. Moving up a level is harder both mentally and physically and takes a lot of effort to bridge that gap, which can be hard to predict.

It's lots of fun trying though.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121829122#Comment_121829122

I remember Dardis was a can't miss prospect! Tony Ward was calling for him to be capped internationally.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121829122#Comment_121829122

To your point, here's Shannon Sharpe (Hall-of-Fame Tight End) and Chad Johnson (holder of all major Bengals receiving records) discussing how they scored in the combine:

https://youtube.com/shorts/fsVP7O-0VUA

(Spoiler: not very highly)....

pickarooney

Sure what would them lads know about farm machinery?

FrannoFan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121834381#Comment_121834381

That was typical Tony ward stuff. Always wanted to assert himself as the sage of all things schools rugby

Think Harrison brewer got similar calls from Hook.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836722#Comment_121836722

Brewer got similar calls from ward and few others.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836722#Comment_121836722

I think it was Ward who wanted the Irish team built around Madigan

Paul Smeenus

Surely we have to mention "Lions Bolter Adam Byrne"?

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836873#Comment_121836873

Maybe but byrne played lot more pro rugby tgan many other guys mentioned here like brewer, dardis

FrannoFan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836873#Comment_121836873

Adam Byrne was Leinster’s youngest ever player.

Wasn’t unreasonable to think he would have a big career.

conncussed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836873#Comment_121836873

In fairness to Adam Byrne, whenever he could string together a run of games he was brilliant. When we gave him a final go at Connacht his body just couldn't deal with pro rugby anymore.

A decent chunk of lads who looked great in schools and u20s will fall away when they aren't able to stay fit for long enough to develop as a pro player.