Leinster v Munster Match Thread

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423983#Comment_121423983

Ya, look, there's no doubt Leinster's defence is elite. Munster just don't have the power up front, particularly in the front-row, to match them thru that alone. We did see some good handling from out 2nd rows tho iirc. (Beirne's really poor offload aside).

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121424282#Comment_121424282

It was interesting to see the pack that Munster went with. That had to be one of the biggest packs a province has ever fielded. If we go on the listed weights from the Munster site the pack had respective weights of 118kg, 105kg, 119kg, 121kg, 116kg, 119kg, 104kg and 117kg.

Would struggle to think of a bigger pack in Irish rugby in recent years. I'm sure there was a game plan designed to utilise them more than we actually saw based around the set piece (or maybe it was picked to address recent scrum issues) but it never really jumped out on the day.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423837#Comment_121423837

But if he goes backwards and its slow ball that's giving defende time to get aligned, and be on the front foot then the space outside is pointless.

It was the exact same with Stander. He used to fight for an extra metre every time but the 4 or 5 seconds it took to get the ball back meant Leinster were always able to get organised and get off the defensive line incredibly quickly and stifle Munsters attack.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121424531#Comment_121424531

It's definitely a heavy pack, but it's a bit lacking on dynamism. Outside of Hodnett & Barron (and Ahern from his 20s days but not as evident now in senior rugby) you wouldn't say there was much quickness about it at all. The starting props are slow and poor carriers. Beirne is a good enough carrier, but not quick over the ground by any means (and has looked a little sluggish post RWC IMO). Kleyn is not an impactful carrier, and Coombes is (usually) effective in tight channels, but certainly hasn't much pace about him.

Munster have young guys like Gleeson and Quinn though who are still big units but have more pace and acceleration about them.

By contrast, at their best all of Porter, Sheehan, McCarthy, Conan, VDF and Doris have good acceleration and better carrying ability. Furlong's best days as a carrier look behind him. Ryan can be impactful on occasion; he had one huge carry on 45 mins where he carries right through Jean Kleyn, bouncing him to the ground.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121424531#Comment_121424531

Bigger doesn't always translate to more power / dynamism tho. By way of example (albeit different positions) I'd be fairly certain Archer is a fair bit heavier than Sheehan. I'm pretty sure we'd both prefer the latter to carry from inside the 5m line every day of the week. Or anywhere on the pitch, really.

Munster's whole game plan now includes higher passes per phase, from both backs and forwards, and it looks to be really working and means a reliance on tight carry's isn't as important as it otherwise would be.

Some of Beirne's late passing was excellent.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121424592#Comment_121424592

One thing I don't think you can criticise Munster for in recent times is slow ruck ball.

Dubinusa

I think Beirne and Kleyn did ok. But the Leinster 2nd rows were better. They are better carriers, imo. Coombes is a good platter but he's not at the level of Doris nor Conan.

Hodnett is a serious player. I always thought Kendellen would Make the national squad but, Hodnett is better. Ahern at 6 gives Munster the edge at L/o. Plus he's a big lad. If only he was more powerful?

Crowley is very impressive. In my mind he's way better than anything I have seen from Carberry. He does have the confidence needed.

Leo should and will not be happy. Leinster played error strewn rugby. Some very poor mistakes. Not sure about anyone else but, Ngati right now is a better option than Henshaw. I expect to see Henshaw this week. He does need minutes and needs form.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423611#Comment_121423611

It was a nonsense call. Crowley just had to lift the ball, but he held it on the ground. There was no impediment from the tackled player.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121424639#Comment_121424639

I wasn't necessarily talking in terms of dynamism but just in respect of utilising that size effectively. For example, I'd have thought that Munster would look to implement more catch and drive plays to suck in Leinster defenders before moving the ball. But a lot of set piece ball appeared to be popped down to the scrum half. To me, that's probably shooting yourself in the foot somewhat given those forwards are then on the move and being asked to cover a lot of ground very quickly.

A pack that big will have specific strengths in tight exchanges but may not be incredibly mobile. I don't think it was a coincidence that Leinster started to really win the collisions and several breakdown turnovers in the final quarter when there were several tired Munster bodies out there.

theVersatile

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121425087#Comment_121425087

JOB literally keeps his top hand on the ball at all times, and you can actually see him reach back with his arm to keep a hold of it when he realises Crowley is over it.

It's textbook holding on - this is a weird decision to be giving grief about.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121427189#Comment_121427189

Watching it live, it looked harsh. JOB is at a full arm extension placing the ball, with Crowley over him in dominant position, but he never tries to lift the ball. Looked like a fair competition and play on, but watching it again, I can see the ref viewinf the combo of VdF and JOB as impeding Crowley.

Neil3030

If I'm a Leinster fan, I'm asking what the heck Joe McCarthy is doing, first man approaching the ruck, totally misreads the direction of the tackle and lazily leaves himself offside and ineffective. No effort to get back onside and help.

I'm asking what on earth is going on with vdF. His carrying is way down and that clearout on a ten was as willowy as they come (although not the ideal angle to start from; McCarthy should have been first clean, vdF optional support).

And I'm then asking why JOB didn't read the situation unfolding—with the only viable cleaners in offside positions beside the ruck—and pop the pass to JGP off the ground.

Respectfully, Leinster have a lot of things to tighten up on before they should be wasting energy wondering if a referee's call was harsh.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429045#Comment_121429045

If I'm a Leinster fan, I'm asking what the heck Joe McCarthy is doing, first man approaching the ruck, totally misreads the direction of the tackle and lazily leaves himself offside and ineffective. No effort to get back onside and help.

Oh god, unwanted flashbacks

Anyway, I'm not complaining about it. But I would observe that I have seen those kind of attempts not rewarded multiple times precisely cause there appears to be no attempt to lift. Crowley did well and Leinster did poorly though.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121427189#Comment_121427189

His arm is at full stretch and his fingertips are on the ball. A man standing up with two hands on the ball is not going to have the slightest difficulty claiming it. It's immaterial in the grand scheme of things but it's a bugbear of mine that defenders 'win' penalties rather than attackers conceding them.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429045#Comment_121429045

As a Leinster fan, I'm concerned with the entire sloppiness of our play. Very very poor.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429388#Comment_121429388

Much is being made of JN's impending influence on Leisnter's D. But I also wonder if perhaps a small regression in attacking philosophy might also be needed. If you go back and watch that Crowley jackal again, you have Doris on the short side wing, and I think the nearest player on the open side is Frawley. Both players hold their width, despite the ruck being under-resourced. I have no doubt that heads would have rolled for this back in Schmidt's day. Granted there is upside to a positive, wide attack, and if vdF and McCarthy clean that ruck Leinster are in a great position to attack a resetting defense. But it is a bit of a balancing act, and sometimes a pendulum can swing too far in one direction.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429457#Comment_121429457

I agree with your general point, and think at times the ambition in attack needs to be reined in a bit, but disagree with that Crowley one as an example. As you'd rightly pointed out above; that ruck wasn't under resourced, just McCarthy makes a bad read and then JVDF makes a limp attempt at the clear out. It's not acceptable, because that was a really strong attacking position they were in there.

FWIW though, Porter was probably one of the last guys you wanted making the initial break too; he quasi butchered it at that point, because I think there was a chance there, with some composure to score off that phase when you look at the players in support.