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Increase in Anti-EV Media Articles

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,613 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    maybe it goes back to economic theory - consumers don’t act rationally 😀



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,613 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Have to say I’m probably not a fan of this government funded discount thing- it’s clear EV manufactures took advantage of it by just upping their prices - I’d prefer to see the market dictate the price - I think EV purchasers over the last 3 years are now paying the price in terms of lower resale values - not totally caused by the grant funding but certainly partially caused by it.

    I’d prefer to see income tax refunds or similar for employed people (I think self employed had incentives to buy EVs?) that had nothing to do with the purchase price of the car - as taxpayers were just lining the pockets of car manufacturers- it’s obvious considering the price reductions they have now implemented that they’re well capable of lowering their prices when they want to



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,051 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    There's no financial difference between a tax credit and a grant, other than income tax credits exclude anybody who isn't paying enough income tax. I don't think a tax credit system would have made a blind bit of difference to the MSRP when it was available, manufacturers aren't idiots and would have priced it into the car the same way.

    I also doubt there were many people who buy new cars (the ones eligible for the grant) who weren't paying some kind of income tax. It's one of those arguments that would be operationally meaningless.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,596 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Hence why they are closing up shop and going out of business



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    some, most do, especially when you consider cost of living etc

    I go back to my comment earlier about 2+ people new to electric cars this year, no fuss, no big deal, just did the numbers



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,559 ✭✭✭RoboRat


    To each their own - I'm just pointing out that the range argument is generally thrown about when the stats prove otherwise. If you believe what the naysayers say, everyone does over 35,000km per year.

    Like yourself, I would prefer to have more range but if I had a budget of €2k, I wouldn't dismiss the leaf I linked for €1,885. An ICE for less than €2k will generally have a lot of mileage and that in itself causes problems when most ICE cars have around 2,000 moving parts, most of them susceptible to carbon build-up, and the problems that causes.

    The reality is that there are plenty of reasonably priced 2nd hand EVs with ample range and new EVs are more affordable than ever.

    If people dismiss an EV without checking if it's suitable just because it's an EV, then I call that falling for FUD. If they're willing to spend a ton of their hard-earned cash on fuel because they fell for the FUD… well, I call that stupidity. I dismissed an EV for years because of the range issue, so I hold my hand up and admit I fell for it. Granted, EVs were more expensive when I dismissed them, but the range issue was always an excuse. When I sat down and actually looked at my mileage, the range wasn't an issue.

    If someone has a genuine reason not to consider one, then that's fine. I have a mate who fishes a lot and pulls a boat - he goes through fields and muddy tracks and he felt it wasn't suitable due to the weight - that's reasonable. As I said before on this forum, I have changed many people's minds on EVs by driving them around and answering their questions. If they had a genuine reason, I wouldn't be able to change their mind.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,559 ✭✭✭RoboRat


    I agree with you there. Tax should be rebated rather than giving a grant at source - that was a bad idea and led to inflated prices. Perhaps the rebate should be linked to the mileage that you do… a reverse carbon credit or something like that.

    There are incentives for employers/ businesses. If I recall correctly, there is no BIK on a car that costs less than €50k. If it's over €50k, there are discounts on the OMV of the vehicle, which reduces the BIK cost for the employee.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,596 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    There's lots of reasonably priced EVs in the 2-4 year age bracket but go any further than that and you're looking at 5k+ for a 10 year old leaf. Putting battery capacity and DC charger aside that's a lot of money. When I was getting my first car I had a budget of €2k for a 10 year old car. I accept you might not get that price these days with a petrol/diesel



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,613 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    there’s no one economic theory that will fit everyone in how they behave- especially when you consider what some people are willing to spend on a brand new car and the rate of depreciation - like a Lamborghini or something - but anyway that’s well away from where we are-

    I’m conscious this forum is full of people who own an EV- it’s naturally in their interest to “sell” the concept of an EV and try and maintain a positive spin on pricing and future values etc - that’s all perfectly fine and above board and I’d probably be doing similar if I owned one- but for those who don’t right now and me included, price is probably one of the biggest concerns in terms of heading towards an EV- and actually no place for home charging could well be another major factor - there’s 100,000s of people living in terraced houses with no driveway and apartment blocks up and down the country - potential EV buyers but won’t buy due to lack of home charging



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,613 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    I see you mention above “changing peoples minds” about EVs- admirable so it is but just shows you the uphill battle that car manufactures and governments need to do more of .

    As a potential second hand buyer “cost to buy” will be my number 1 concern- I tend to keep my cars for a good few years so second will be a very decent range - my main problem right now is that I have an old car that I don’t use much as I have the use of a perfectly good more modern ICE- I’ll be forced to buy simply because the 16 year old car I have will probably have massive insurance hike - but right now I’m still trying to stick it out a bit longer



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,559 ✭✭✭RoboRat


    Most people here are not trying to maintain a positive spin, they're addressing disinformation in the media. Personally, if people want to keep the oil barons rich, that's their choice… Big Oil thanks them for their custom.

    If someone doesn't like an EV because it's an EV, that's their opinion… but they don't generally do that, they churn out FUD to justify their reasons. I don't like Apple iPhones… I don't churn out BS, I just say that I don't like the interface.

    Yes, there are people an EV won't suit and I absolutely agree that home charging is a must. However, due to how dwellings are constructed here, there are far more people with a means for home charging than not. There were 2,115,361 residential dwellings in Ireland in Q2 2023, according to the GeoDirectory database. The number of apartments, which are defined as dwellings that exist in a building of five or more dwellings, amounted to 214,605 (10.1% of the national stock). Terraced dwellings accounted for 28.3%. There are 100,000's of people that can't home charge, but they account for less than 30% of the overall housing stock.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,511 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I don't agree that all EV owners only give you the rose tinted view. I think that's a lazy argument.

    Plenty of threads and posts telling people whats good and bad about different EVs, or certain routes and blackspots for charging. Also strategies for long distance driving "if" someone wants to go that.

    Fire example. Most will tell you not to bother unless you've home charging for example. Or which EVs are better as a 2nd local car rather than car for longer distances.

    EV owers are not in the main motoring forum telling people to buy EVs. But we do have have the opposite in the EV forums.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,511 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    The bangernomics thread has had to up the budget to 3k and struggling with that. Big money being asked for used high mileage ICE cars imo. Never really got back to reasonable after COVID and Brexit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,511 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    However it's done is depends if you want to incentivise people in a certain direction..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    You can't compare a Lambo to an average buy, someone buying them in reality is massively successful and have that sort of cash, thus affording the depreciation. Or its a once in a lifetime purchase.

    I own both an EV and a combustion, I don't put any spin on it. I made a decision many years ago based on the maths that an electric car would save me lots of money and to keep two cars on the road, which I have to, it made total sense to have at least one EV. The first one had a lot worse range than the current one and I still never used the charging networking.

    You mention 100,000's of people in terrace house, I can tell you I live in Dublin and the entire area was 1970's houses with driveway and 99% of them had two cars and very easy to install a charge point, still today the number of electric is small, in reality every single house could have at least 1 EV without any issue.

    Price is not a concern to be honest, as I mentioned above I have had two, when I finally trade in this one against a new car I won't be out of pocket. Between service cost, fuel, tax etc I will see a significant saving if I had bought a new combustion car compared to a new electric car.

    Honestly you don't want to buy an electric, I am not here to convince you to, I am just giving my point of view. The longer peopel stay in combustion cars the longer I will continue to see the savings I am making. I would like the tolls discount back because that was great but Im just greedy

    Most people are not buying electric cars because they don't understand them and they are unwilling to learn, that is not my concern and I dont have to persuade them. If someone comes up to me and says they don't want to buy electric, I turn around and tell them quickly I never asked them to. Same as I wouldn't tell anyone to buy a petrol or diesel.

    If someone asks and is willing to listen I will give the pros and cons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Car manufacturers will continue to give options, car dealers will continue to sell what they have access to. So if a car dealer has 7 combustions and its 10 weeks to order an electric the seller will tell you to buy combustion because he gets paid quicker.

    Like everything it is up to the buyer to decide what they want, if they want a sales person to do that they are already in a losing battle



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,559 ✭✭✭RoboRat


    I don't actively try to change people's minds. Sometimes I have been giving them a lift and they ask questions or they know I have an EV and they're curious - they have heard bad things but they want to hear someone's actual experience. In most cases, they had a distorted view and when I clarified my experience versus what they had heard, their perception was changed. Generally, when I discuss the savings, they get very interested.

    Personally, I don't think the government should be the one to try and change people's minds. If it comes from them, people will double down on the negativity.

    If I was in your particular situation, I probably wouldn't change unless the numbers said otherwise. Before my EV, I had a newish Diesel and an 08 Diesel. The 08 had over 350,000km and was getting to the point where it was becoming a money drain. I was originally looking at a 5-year-old Diesel but when I charted my usage and looked at the running costs, a brand new EV would cost me €20 more per month. It's probably going to cost less with the way things are going.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,613 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Climate targets and carbon reduction is collectively the responsibility of all citizens so I’m saying the government do have a role to play here - but take your point it will likely backfire.

    If I could survive a one car household I’d probably buy brand new -probably 2 more years to go on current car loan so I’d prefer not to have 2 car loans on the go -the older ICE car is costing very little relatively speaking to have in the driveway so it’s invaluable to me right now as a chape second car - I might start exploring older EVs but really I’d prefer ultimately to have an EV as the go to car and the current ICE as the second car or maybe even trade that in for a cheapish EV too but that’s down the road



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,559 ✭✭✭RoboRat


    Absolutely, don't get up to your neck in loans. Too many people live on the never never. I won't be changing my EV until the loan is paid off but it made sense for me when I drilled down the numbers.

    I'm not sure if I read one of your posts correctly, but it looked like you said that you don't have the means for home charging? If this is the case then I wouldn't recommend an EV. The cost for public charging is exorbitant and you lose a big benefit of being able to plug it in at night and let it charge away for a low cost.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,613 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    no, I was commenting on the fact that a significant % of people- a minority yes but still significant, don’t currently have the ability to charge an EV at home - that can’t be underestimated in terms of EV sales - especially considering many of these people would do very little milage month on month considering apartments and terraced houses without place for a car tend to be found in city and urban areas I reckon this will be sorted somehow in the medium term but it’s definitely impacting on sales right now



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,511 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I think you're over stating the impact of a minority on sales.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Why not try some data instead of waffle?

    According to government data, over 1.6 million drivers have off street parking. The BEV fleet is currently around 60k vehicles.

    Why would you focus on the 1/3rd of drivers without off street parking when you've 1.54 million plus who can install charging?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,613 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    you don’t have to be so rude - it’s not waffle it’s fact - don’t quote my post again if you’re going to be so aggressive



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    You used waffly terms for data. "significant percentage" is just waffle. Quote the percentage if you know it, otherwise why bother?

    And "waffle" isn't rude, it's an adjective for fact free bloviating.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,593 ✭✭✭pah


    "Like yourself, I would prefer to have more range but if I had a budget of €2k, I wouldn't dismiss the leaf I linked for €1,885. An ICE for less than €2k will generally have a lot of mileage and that in itself causes problems when most ICE cars have around 2,000 moving parts, most of them susceptible to carbon build-up, and the problems that causes."

    Not the 17 year old is250 I sold last year for €2k she'll still be going in another 17, just be about 5k a year to tax 😂



  • Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭Ev fan


    Thinking of doing an initiative in my local area to spread real world info and user experience of owning and running and EV. I propose to get 5 (experienced) EV owners- all different models along with myself to assemble in a quiet local carpark for say an hour or so. We would advertise in advance locally to encourage any prospective EV buyers or people who just want to know more about the ins and outs of EVs to come to the meet and greet. Informal chats could be had with the owners with 'sit ins' and short spins around the area as needed. What do ye think- would it work?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Worth a try. Not sure how you'd get people to turn up though. The other option is to do a one to one setup where if anyone (neighbours typically) talk to you about the car and you offer them the same kind of experience.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,511 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Cars and coffee meet seems to work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 899 ✭✭✭ColemanY2K


    You're doing something similar to what I imagine my great grandparents did in the 1910's. They were the first people in their village to have a car. As well as using it for their own personal use they also used it as a taxi. Just imagine the conversations had with the locals as they ferried them around the place 😅

    🌞 7.79kWp PV System. Comprised of 4.92kWp Tilting Ground Mount + 2.87kWp @ 27°, azimuth 180°, West Waterford 🌞



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭joe1303l


    I am concerned about commercially viable repairs on older cheaper EV’s. Batteries, Motors, Inverters, DC convertors etc. These are the components that will see perfectly good EV’s end up being scrapped if independent garages don’t make an effort to upskill soon.



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