The new recycling system

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495673#Comment_121495673

I think if the online delivery services offer a recyclable return service without being compelled it will be because they think it's good for business.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495666#Comment_121495666

One option would be to provide bottled beers for your guests.

Since MUP bottled and canned beers often retail at the same price per volume.

Of course if the guests bring their own cans and crush them it's no skin off your nose.

Reckless Abandonment

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495859#Comment_121495859

A friend has a small shop and it's a concerning issue for him. Machine is 13k (and monthly maintenance fee 85 euro) even with government grant he still thinks it will cost him about 1500-2000 a year. He dose a large volume but not large enough to make the numbers works. As for doing it without a Machine they have made that very complicated and costly and empty bottles will have to be stored securely as to avoid theft . It's a good idea in principle but the machines should be free or nearly free.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495718#Comment_121495718

I have no idea where you got the extra minute out of. It's a extremely remedial view of what is actually involved.

But either way, if the large grocery stores also want to be mobile trash collectors there is going to be a significant cost to this.

There is zero incentive.

The incentive to have these machines on the grounds of their stores is they don't have to do anything with them except benefit from the store voucher.

They will earn a tiny amount per item which is claimed will cover the running costs of the machine, this will be done with free labour.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495906#Comment_121495906

What's good for business is profit, so costs will be passed on to the consumer.

Personally I wouldn't use it, no more than I would hire my waster collection company to deliver me food.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496084#Comment_121496084

Delivery services are becoming popular and from my limited knowledge the people who use them are very loyal customers.

They are less likely to go to other shops and enjoy getting their groceries delivered without having to shop in person.

I don't use a delivery service myself and I would need to be assured that my food items were segregated from other people's recyclables before opting for one.

MoonMotorway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494174#Comment_121494174

That's not really going to work with my circumstances. Let's say I bottle one 2 L bottle a week, that will be about 8 or 12 bottles after 2 or 3 months. I don't drive. That could easily be a bin bags size of empty bottles. I am really not going to be carrying that around with me.

I know others will argue to go more often but that won't happen. I know my energy levels and I am exhausted far too easily.

I don't usually buy bottles of coke or 7 up so it likely won't apply much to me. I do like buying bottled water so I will adapt to buy 5L bottles and glass bottles instead. It's disappointing.

I don't usually buy cans except for maybe at Christmas time but I will worry about that next year.

I would be anxious that this bottles and cans are only a starting point and they maybe over time there will be more recycling stuff included like milk bottles and yogurt tubs and other plastics and other cans.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495413#Comment_121495413

Its quite bizarre that for a such a well planned for scheme, that apparently works so successfully in the rest of the civilised world, we have lads on here with their eyes closed and fingers in ears deflecting any criticism of the scheme and desperately trying to identify possible solutions to a whole array of perfectly reasonable criticisms.

Yet all we hear from the most vocal supporters is stfu, stop being pathetic, this will be successful, it must be successful, there is no other way.. ..

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495699#Comment_121495699

I have a couple of nice sturdy cardboard boxes I got beer for Chrismas delivered in. I'll probably keep them for putting cans and PET bottles into. Bit of a faff alright but I'm becoming resigned to it.

Between this and MUP though, it's making drinking beer at home more expensive/inconvenient, and making drinking spirits at home relatively cheaper/more convenient. Not quite sure if that was what the Einsteins at AAI et al had in mind.

Feck this coupon nonsense though. If I can tap and pay for pretty much anything with my card or phone, there's no reason why I can't tap and get the deposits back that way too.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495859#Comment_121495859

"their drinks product stock will ultimately cost them more"

This part is incorrect. The stock costs all retailers the same (well, big supermarkets get volume discounts but you know what I mean). Ultimately it's the drinks producer/importer paying the deposit up front and the consumer getting it back (or, if not, it goes into Re-Turn's funds to run the scheme).

The RVMs will drive footfall towards the supermarkets, but that's where most people bought the majority of what they put through those machines anyway. They have to give up space to host these machines, pay to install them (not sure who pays for maintenance), and this is space they could put to other profitable uses. They're presumably also paying for the electricity to run them. (you did address that in your subsequent post)

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495922#Comment_121495922

It could actually become the 'etiquette' thing to do to leave your (bring your own booze) house party cans intact at the venue, so your host can benefit from the deposit as a thank-you. In fact bringing them home could possibly be considered mean 😁😁

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495939#Comment_121495939

I'm not really seeing the attraction in (very carefully, don't damage 'em!) stealing large volumes of cans or bottles, mostly empty air, to get 15 or 25 cents back each. You'd imagine the tills, the spirits or maybe wine counter, the ciggy dispenser would be somewhat more attractive targets...

Genghis

Here's a couple of photos. These are in a Dunnes owned shopping centre, they have put them in the mall.

Massive units you'd have to say.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497231#Comment_121497231

Two shops buying a brand of drink for €2. This includes a 15c deposit on the bottle.

Shop A has either a RVM or manual collection - it doesn’t matter. People are bringing bottles back, getting their deposit as either store credit or cash. What are they likely to do with it? 100% of the store credit folk spend it in the shop. A large percentage of the cash folk will spend it in the shop. And that returned deposit doesn’t cost the shop anything - Re-turn are reimbursing the shop for it, so it’s genuine extra revenue if it’s spent with them.

Shop B is exempt from the collection side of the scheme. There’s no one bringing back containers, no one getting deposits back, so 0% spending deposits in the shop. No extra revenue.

Shop B can’t realise the gains on selling drinks that Shop A can. That’s means the drinks products cost them more. Not that they have to spend more on them up front, no what I mean is that there’s a cost to not being part of the scheme, and that cost is manifested as lost revenue.

Much in the blurb of the scheme is made of the “circular economy” - the deposit coming back to the shop as revenue. Shops that get the exemption are actually entering a “spiral economy” - they’re taking the brunt of collecting the deposit from consumers, but watching the potential revenue of the returned deposit spiral away to their competitors.

geographica

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493847#Comment_121493847

Yeh? How far back?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497258#Comment_121497258

I assumed these machines would be in the car park with maybe a couple of dedicated free loading bays.

Having to find and pay for parking and drag bags or boxes of trash through a shopping centre mall will be super convenient.

It's quite evident now this isn't a recycling scheme at all, it's a smart dustbin scheme to collect trash on the go.

Recycling bottles and cans at home has been completely dismantled with nothing adequate to replace it.

This is absolutely bonkers.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497620#Comment_121497620

Go somewhere else. They're outside my local Aldi.

Some will have them inside. Some will have them outside.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497655#Comment_121497655

They should be all outside as standard.

As of now I have no idea where they will be because I haven't seen any.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497367#Comment_121497367

Indefinitely.

The Legislation specifically lists unclaimed deposits as one of the sources of revenue that funds the scheme (I quoted the specific section and provide the link earlier in the thread).

Think about it. Under the EU’s Directive on single-use plastics, Ireland must ensure separate collection of 77% of plastic beverage bottles placed on the market by 2025, rising to 90% in 2029. So even if this scheme overachieves the ultimate target and hits 95% collection (it won't), there's still going to be 5% of all returnable containers that won't be returned for various reasons (containers need to be intact, in shape and with a legible barcode to be accepted). A deposit is collected on every one of those, and it will be Re-turn that will get to keep it (and as I mentioned, this is already planned as part of the funding of the scheme).

On the uncashed deposit voucher side, the consumer has their deposit voucher from the machine which they can then exchange for store credit, or for cash. But there's going to be a certain percentage of the deposit vouchers that aren't cashed (Dublin Bus makes about €1 million a year in unclaimed change tickets). There's various reasons for that. People lose them, people forget about them, they're depositing the containers at night when the shop isn't open, the vouchers get damaged. The Retailer Membership Rules (https://re-turn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/DSRI-Retailer-Membership-Rules-FINAL-June-2023.pdf] say that retailers are not obliged to accept damaged deposit vouchers:

4.13 Where the Retailer has elected an automated collection type, the Retailer shall not be required to reimburse the value of the original Deposit paid to a Consumer who presents a damaged voucher or any other damaged document originating from a RVM. For the avoidance of doubt, damaged shall be interpreted as a voucher or any other document originating from a Reverse Vending Machine (RVM) that is illegible or incapable of being authenticated by the Retailer’s receiving personnel. 

Remember, the deposit vouchers are going to be printed on thermal paper, like many receipts. It's thin and not very durable. Heat, light, moisture, bending will fairly quickly render them illegible.

From the published documentation, it's hard to tell who will keep the deposit for uncashed vouchers. There are supplemental terms around the redemption of vouchers that haven't been publicly published (the Membership Rules linked above allude to them).

If the retailer is refunded the deposit on processing to the returned container, then it is is them that will keep unclaimed deposits. However, if they are only refunded the deposit from Re-turn on successful redemption of the deposit voucher by the consumer, then it is Re-turn that will keep the unclaimed deposits. I suspect it is the latter. The only hint I can find for this is this line in this article:

4. Re-turn collects containers and pays retailer a Handling Fee, in addition to reimbursing all Deposit Fees redeemed in-store.

https://issuu.com/retailnews/docs/rnaug_nojti/s/28953857#google_vignette

But it's difficult to know if that's accurate.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497678#Comment_121497678

Some people may prefer them inside especially in the winter. Hanging around in a queue in the rain and cold watching others trying to get their cans into a machine and cursing and kicking it when it rejects some of them wont appeal to many

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497754#Comment_121497754

Put smaller ones inside.

The vast majority of this waste will be coming from the home.

Imagine they concocted the same sloppy inconvenient nonsense for glass?

Also there doesn't seem to be 2 fooks given about the lorry driver who has to collect all this.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497797#Comment_121497797

Also there doesn't seem to be 2 fooks given about the lorry driver who has to collect all this.

The Retailer Rules (Schedule I) state that for RVMs, the containers have to be stored in wheeled containers with identifying tags that Re-turn supply. The lorry drivers won't be emptying the machines - that's up to the staff at the collection point. For manual collections, the have to be stored in sealed, tagged plastic bags (again, supplied by Re-turn) not weighing more than 10kg each.

For both the wheeled containers and the plastic bags, the rules say

(a) The returned In-Scope Products are readily accessible to the Collection Contractor with minimal interaction with the Retailer’s personnel at the Return Point required;

For the wheeled containers specifically, it goes on to say:

(c) The returned In-Scope Products are stored in wheeled containers which can be easily transported to the collection vehicle by the Collection Contractor and the container shall be capable of being raised by the collection vehicle and the contents of the container discharged into the truck’s body. 

If these conditions aren't met, the Collecting Contractor has the right to refuse to collect.

batistuta9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497797#Comment_121497797

You'll need to go in anyway to use the voucher or get your cash.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497797#Comment_121497797

I dont want to use the machines irrespective of location. I already recycle all of my bottles and cans in the green bin so its just going a necessary pita for me.

As for glass recycling, its very different as no faffing about with trying to load item by item and dealing with rejections and vouchers. Just lash the bottles into bank and be gone on your merry way

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497856#Comment_121497856

The returned In-Scope Products are stored in wheeled containers which can be easily transported to the collection vehicle by the Collection Contractor

Depends what they mean by easily transported.

In the picture provided above there is 4 separate bins.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497870#Comment_121497870

I was hoping only to have to do that once or twice a year.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497899#Comment_121497899

Hope you're well organised. I can always find the receipts I dont need😩

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497918#Comment_121497918

Imagine the technology existed to eliminate a paper receipt.

I guess we will just have to wait for it to be invented.

It's almost like it is designed to factor in paper receipts will be unusable in a lot of circumstances.

Chit Ching for some.

thebiglad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465426#Comment_121465426

I have seen this in Frankfurt - homeless turn out the bins early in the mornings looking for recyclable cans/bottles that (probably) tourists binned - street cleaners then have to come along and clean up the unholy mess - in Germany it works as the street cleaners come round at 7am (from what I saw) to empty the public bins and lift the trash around the bins.

It'll be some mess on a windy day or if not enough staff employed to clean up by the Councils.

Genghis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497620#Comment_121497620

99% of supermarkets were built before any of this was a requirement. So basically each has to find somewhere to retrofit a couple of large machines, including having space for a queue, access to power, connectivity, etc, as well as access to empty them, etc. Am sure they would also want to balance the cost of groundworks vs waste of prime retail estate vs convenience for customers etc.

I think this is why you will find them in random locations, some outside, some in a mall, some near a door, some at the front, some at the rear, etc. I imagine it has caused some headaches, and I expect we will see more 'seems daft' locations for these.

But don't forget - no matter what you see or hear, re-turn is convenient for everyone ;)