The new recycling system

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591358#Comment_121591358

Its baffling that you fail to comprehend what other people are saying. The majority of people are going to deposit their bottles and cans when going to the shop anyway. The "increase in consumption" will be negligible.

Will having an RVM attract more people to your store? Sure. Will all the big retailers have them? Yep. Hence, will people change where they shop? Nope.

How you fail to comprehend that is beyond me.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591313#Comment_121591313

Benefit 1. There's already a recycling location literlly outside of my door - but potentially not there for everyone - Generally a location whos carbon footprint will be a hell of a lot lower than the overall footprint of an RVM.

Benefit 2. The jury is still out in other countries where RVMS are in play (see here https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/30/has-germany-hit-the-jackpot-of-recycling-the-jurys-still-out )

Benefit 3. Will it? Are there other ways that could have done the same thing - were they even considered?

Benefit 4. Is there evidence to suggest they have done this in other countries? Were there other ways to try to do this?

Benefit 5. Really? Surely there are other opportunities for those people that wouldn't have involved RVMs?

Benefit 6. Is it easier to seperate recycling? What happens the stuff in the regular recycling bins?

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591278#Comment_121591278

I think that’s a monumental pain in the ass since it’s a one by one job.

Currently I go to the bottle bank once a month with my glass(mostly white) and fire them in as quick as I can. Assuming for each bottle I have to scan it 1x1 let the machine accept or reject it, then do my cans - could easily be 10 mins at the machine(if I was to do it weekly) itself without all the extra segregation and storage before hand.

I see how it was sold, but reality and what is the actuality are miles apart in my opinion.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591441#Comment_121591441

You were saying the carrot for the retailer was that people will not exchange the voucher for cash because its too much hassle and this is by design as a carrot for the retailer. Or is my understanding incorrect? As such, I am not sure of the relevance of your reply in this context.

I agree that the new system is a lot more inconvenient then using your green bin. I'm not trying to argue against that. I think the levels of inconvenience are being exaggerated here. Looking at the video below, it seems relatively quick to me but of course its going to be slower than glass:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coBvrjDg7VA

I honestly think you'll just see a lot of people absorb the cost and it will be reflected as inflation. This isn't Germany.

A lot of people will likely try it once, get bored and then just accept that a bottle of whatever is 25 cent more expensive. We're not price sensitive and we're not as likely to engage with this stuff.

Was it even field trialled in Ireland?

I'd predict you'll see some engagement, but it will be predominantly people who are aware of it and motivated enough to be bothered.

If you wanted to really tackle this issue you'd make the bottles more recyclable and offer a plastics collection green bin.

For example, why can't multiple bags be provided that are put into the green bin at home to separate plastics into bottles + others and one for cans and leave the general bin for paper / card? Give people a 25% discount on their bill if they do that.

Put the whole lot into your 'green' bin, it's collected by truck and It would make sorting a hell of a lot easier.

We could also put a lot more work into reducing at source. There's FAR FAR too much plastic packaging being used here. For example multi-pack offers, totally unnecessary wrappings and packaging - plastics being used where paper could be used and so on.

Just as an example, we've had the entire European detergent industry switch from powders in paper boxes to plastic capsules in predominately plastic packs.

Ireland rarely has refill pouches made available for shampoos, shower gels etc. There are a few, but it's nothing like as common as France, Germany etc.

We could standardise the types of plastics allowed in packaging for those products to aid recycling too - things like having weird multi layer plastics etc should simply not be allowed.

Tackle the supermarkets' use of endless plastic packs on prepackaged veg etc.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591409#Comment_121591409

Benefit 1. There's already a recycling location literlly outside of my door - but potentially not there for everyone - Generally a location whos carbon footprint will be a hell of a lot lower than the overall footprint of an RVM.

Yes, one that can easily be contaminated, is difficult to separate and provides recycling rates of ~60%

Benefit 2. The jury is still out in other countries where RVMS are in play (see here https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/30/has-germany-hit-the-jackpot-of-recycling-the-jurys-still-out )

It is a carrot and stick approach though

Benefit 3. Will it? Are there other ways that could have done the same thing - were they even considered?

Yes, it has done so in other countries across the world so there is no reason for it to not work here, even in California where they have a very poorly designed system (you have to bring to a designated council recycling facility to queue with homeless people to claim back 5-10c) they get close to 80% return.

Benefit 4. Is there evidence to suggest they have done this in other countries? Were there other ways to try to do this?

Most other countries include bottles in their return schemes so I don't think there are other test cases out there

Benefit 5. Really? Surely there are other opportunities for those people that wouldn't have involved RVMs?

Of course there is, not sure what your point here is

Benefit 6. Is it easier to seperate recycling? What happens the stuff in the regular recycling bins?

Wasn't there controversy a few years ago that the "recycling" bin contents were being incinerated as it took too much time to sort through the different products?

gipi

Yes, it was trialled here in a number of shops. 10c was returned per item (even though no deposit had been paid).

Don't know how it went though

The rural / urban fly tipping issues is largely being caused by the ridiculous approach we took to collection of waste i.e. private, for profit, charge per lift services with competition between multiple providers.

If you take my street in Cork, we have Country Clean, Panda/Greenstar, Wyser and DMC - all of which have different collection days and the whole place is strewn with bins every day.

The council should have a situation where that service is put out to tender, operated by a single provider and the fees should be collected as part of some kind of local service charge that cannot be avoided. There are households not using any waste collection services which is resulting in burning of rubbish and people dumping stuff in other people's bins and in street bins (which are then removed) and down quiet streets, over people's back walls and all sorts of stuff.

It's a stupid system that was designed without any thought for how people actually will behave.

Areas with terrace houses or apartments should have access to those large, frequently collected underground or overground and neatly hidden away bin systems like you see in continental Europe. A lo t of them don't have any space to store endless individual wheelie bins - a solution that works fine for houses with gardens / yards, but not anything else.

Now we're adding yet another layer of complications to the top of it and won't listen to any discussion about why it might not work..

If we're going to continue to try and solve waste management by imposing solutions from upon high, and taking the view that the country is stupid / needs to be beaten into line by fees, then we will get nowhere.

Talk to the public. Find out what would actually work. Get people on board. Provide public services that actually make these things convenient and helpful. It should be easier to recycle and easier to avoid packaging in the first place.

Why exactly should the weakest link in the chain - the consumers have to clean up after a retail sector and a FMCG (Fast Moving Consumer Goods) sector that has powerful lobbyists in Dublin and in Brussels, and is constantly let off the hook about this stuff?

Literally thousands of people in Ireland are involved in trying to find solutions through Tidy Towns groups and all sorts of local community projects that try to make their areas nice and deal with all of this and they're never talked to by the people making these kinds of decisions from the top down. They're instead left picking up (literally) the pieces of badly designed (if well intentioned) public policy.

Carlito Brigantes Tale

This will be an total and utter failure. Most working people don't have time to be standing around in a queue for 20 minutes to return bottles for a few euro if the machine is even working at all. I'll just continue on as I've always done and crush them and into the green bin.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591576#Comment_121591576

20 minute queues? Right....

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591480#Comment_121591480

I was replying to the first part of you comment - it Is a big inconvenience for likely feck all change at the end of the chain.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591601#Comment_121591601

Then fundamentally the only place we disagree is there. I think it will be successful. You think it will be unsuccessful.

If its successful, its worth the inconvenience.

If its unsuccessful, its not worth the inconvenience.

Fair?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591385#Comment_121591385

The majority of people are going to deposit their bottles and cans when going to the shop anyway.

Is that opinion or fact?

Sconsey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591548#Comment_121591548

There is no controversy (there should be)....our 'recyclables' are separated in Ireland, the majority of the plastic is then burned in Ireland (can't remember the percentage, around 70%), the small remainder of plastic is then shipped abroad in the hope it might be recycled. I have not seen any evidence that the newly separated plastic will be going anywhere other than an incinerator.

Far too much talk here about 'recycling', all we are changing is 'collection and sorting', I would love to see more actual recycling. Interesting to see, in a few years time, if our recycling rate increases and incineration rate decreases.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591649#Comment_121591649

Fact

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591622#Comment_121591622

If 100% of what goes in the machine is recycled fully then yes to an extent, however:

I think it’s mad everything as to go back as you got it and I think it’s mad that cans are included as there is no issue with aluminum recycling.

I think it’s a total inconvenience to the population and probably not worth it on the balance of solving the directive from the EU.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591576#Comment_121591576

Complete fantasy, not surprising given some of your other rants.

Perhaps you could, to avoid the crushing etc, cut out your use of plastic bottles and thus avoid the issue

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591678#Comment_121591678

Great, Could you provide a link to this fact?

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591649#Comment_121591649

Why ask a rhetorical question?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591817#Comment_121591817

Will do certainly 👍

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591668#Comment_121591668

You're right that theres no evidence to say that under the current scheme that if more plastic was put in green bins that it would be recycled.

Under the new scheme, Return will recycle the plastics. They are clean and segregated. Unless youre suggesting that they are lying?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591828#Comment_121591828

Why masquerade your opinion as fact? 🤷‍♀️

thomas 123

https://youtu.be/coBvrjDg7VA?si=Pf9HkKTyn_8uWCVj

@bren2001 I got a second to watch this video - it clearly demomstarates what a pain in that ass this is and that’s just 1/3rd of the bottles(no cans) they actually brought to do it - so easily 10 mins at the machine - Saturday morning as everyone is heading out to do their weekly shop - there will absolutely be waits to use these - a further inconvenience.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591741#Comment_121591741

I think it’s mad everything as to go back as you got it and I think it’s mad that cans are included as there is no issue with aluminum recycling.

They are only included because they actually worth something.

By removing cans from the collection companies all our collection fees will increase.

But remember this is cost neutral and convenient for everyone. 🤞

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591839#Comment_121591839

You should ask yourself the same question. I am not presenting it as fact, its an educated guess. I'll keep note that and make sure to ask you to back up every fact with a reference on this thread. You present plenty of opinion as fact.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591741#Comment_121591741

As per Figure 4, aluminum recycling is at 35%. So no, your statement that there is no issue with aluminum recycling is incorrect.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591861#Comment_121591861

If there are massive queues, I'll admit I'm wrong. It's guesswork until they come in. I don't think there will be massive wait times.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591886#Comment_121591886

Why is it at 35% then? I’ve been to my local waste center a good few times dropping off refuse and seen them pull it out of general waste.

it’s a metal and it’s hard to contaminate surly. Also with the process for aluminum recycling wouldn’t impurities just burn off ?

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591888#Comment_121591888

There will be queues if people did it as it’s being sold to us.

The reality is it will be another task to be done on a set day taking travel and time to the RVM.

And what happens when the guy with a one can wants to use a machine hogged by 4/5 others with black bags of returns ? Can goes in the bin.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121591908#Comment_121591908

I don't know that answers to your question but from that figure I think it is clear why aluminium is included in the scheme. I would have thought the same as yourself. Aluminium cans are relatively easy to remove from general waste with magnets.