The new recycling system

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624990#Comment_121624990

Still regardless of whether or not thats even true, it gives you no right to be so hostile and negative towards me. Heat of the moment lads we are getting worked up and losing sight of the real issue here: the new recycling scheme. Lets try to get back on topic and have a good discussion!

Also you never answered my question relating to all this.

You're the only person here in this entire thread that seems to have a problem with me.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625127#Comment_121625127

Being hostile and negative to someone spreading utter imagined mistruths and who has repeatedly expressed criminal intent is absolutely normal

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625225#Comment_121625225

Again as i've already stated a couple of times here on this thread now, i have absolutely no criminal or illegal intentions whatsoever. My sole purpose is to consider and contemplate ways how to benefit from this recycling scheme. I have no desires to break the law.

Also you are not allowed to be hostile or negative towards any of the people here, regardless of disagreeing with them. you're turning the whole thing into a personal attack, why? why not just stay focused on the matter at hand instead? maybe use that energy for something more positive or creative like helping coming up with some schemes or helpful ideas relating to all of this. Others have put forward ideas including myself but you just keep shooting everything down. We can use your talents to help make the environment cleaner and safer. please come over to the good side.

We can figure this out together and come up with a solution where everyone's a winner. We have the freedom to brainstorm ideas.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625064#Comment_121625064

I've read your proposal. Chipped bins already exist. I would have thought most people have one.

The issue with your solution is:

AI could then later be used to decide if the customer gets any credit returned, and by how much

Effectively you're saying "some technology will do the difficult bit", the issue is, I am not aware of any system that is capable of that. You would effectively have to create a funnel that when the bin is tipped, the bottles fall single file. That would be so slow. Its impractical. It would also require a completely new bin truck to be designed and purchased (I agree that the cost is kind of irrelevant because of the length of the scheme etc). You would not be able to load another bin, until the current bin was cleared through. An image processing algorithm could easily process the video if you had the single file stream of containers. AI isn't needed or relevant.

Current technology wouldn't allow for our current bins to be tipped and bottles to be counted. You're trying to count bottles behind bottles. Multiple cameras help but cross referencing those images is still going to lead to massive errors. The WM smart trucks in America are years away from being able to do what you suggest.

Its a nice idea and one I would love if it worked but current technology cannot do that.

Thats also leaving aside other things (which have solutions) like theft, youd need a lock on the bin. Fraud. And similar things to that you see in the America case study linked earlier.

Genghis

All fair comments @bren2001

I called out that trucks would need a significant modification, but re-turn also involved a massive investment in capital across thousands of machines, on top of which an entirely new infrastructure is needed to service them (daily collections).

In terms of the design, I completely agree with you, there needs to be a way to funnel and capture the image. I do think it would be possible to engineer that within a bin truck and within the time frame between bins being hoisted up, etc. Though I can't back that up and you are likely correct no such solution is readily available (though I say one should be possible with current technology). I think a funnel type design would overcome the bottles on bottles thing, and we can use an image processing algorithm - maybe I mislabelled it, or maybe we are splitting hairs , I think we are both describing a computer based solution that can interpret images reliably and quickly; I like to think an element of AI will help with learning and correction.

And yes all bins are chipped, I wasn't suggesting that as any great technology advance, its just to identify the owner of the waste, and account to credit.

Issues like fraud and theft are fair comment also, but I feel they derive from the levy / value, not so much the collection technology, I am certain re-turn items will be stolen, and certain fraud will be attempted.

Thanks for reading it over, have enjoyed the discussions today.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625328#Comment_121625328

OMG i just thought of a nice idea for the "funnel" issue you mentioned. Imagine a giant magnet inside the machine so that the bottles go down the chute or wherever, while the tin cans get stuck to the magnet and go else where. That way the machine is self-sorting and its cheaper than requiring technology that artificially identifies what has been inserted. Faster too.

I'm thinking the chute part of the machine the stuff gets chucked into has a flap that gets releases once the bottles have made their way down, so the magnet can de-active allowing all of the cans to drop down and be guided into a different chute made specially for the cans. That way everything is kept separated despite all being inserted together at the same time!

Alternatively the magnetic wall part can revolve around, dumping the cans stuck to it, behind it instead, if one wishes to keep the location of the chutes between plastic bottles and cans separate and far apart.

Let me know what you think of this

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625512#Comment_121625512

There's one minor problem here. Aluminium doesn't stick to magnets.

Magnetic flux can be used with extremely complicated separations machines but these don't fit on trucks.

The cheaper and similar way to isolate aluminium cans from a mixed stream is optical, which is what the RVMs are doing anyway

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625522#Comment_121625522

Bugger, i thought i was onto something good there with that.

So maybe if a truck had a separate section for each then? like for example the left side bottles go in and the right side for tin cans.

There's could be special bins designed with one side being for plastic bottles and the other side for tin cans, and like a slide yoke inside of it directing them to go as far left and as far right as possible (no pun intended) so when the machine or bin truck lifts this special bin, all the separated stuff goes into where they are meant to go, without any chance of the left side accidentally going into the right and vice versa.

This would require people to initially put things in the correct side of the bin when loading it up before hand. or if its too complex could be mini-bins, 2 seperate bins, 1 for plastic bottles and 1 for cans and 1 for the little boy who lives down the lane

SteM

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/irish-pubs-brace-price-hike-31891899?utm_source=newsshowcase&utm_medium=discover&utm_campaign=CCwqGQgwKhAIACoHCAow6KD9CjDuy_QCMPy_zAIwkPb3Ag&utm_content=bullets

Do many pubs pour beer from cans? I can't remember the last time I saw it in Ireland.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625932#Comment_121625932

The article mentions about the only thing that is commonly served from cans in pubs - Red Bull. Pubs use splash machines, or 2L bottles that they retain, or glass bottles for nearly everything else that isn't on draught. I would expect whoever imports Red Bull here to start bringing in the 250ml glass bottles they have of it in other countries to skip around this.

Craft beer focused bars often have a reasonable amount of canned beer, but there's probably 30 of those in the entire country; and you do get the odd can shifting place for students too.

Now that I think of it, my local sells a few craft cans also - but they have an off-licence so they're going to be handling deposits for that anyway. And the beers in question are actually sold in 500ml bottle still (Rye River, O'Haras, Kinnegar and Galway Bay do both can and bottle)

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625953#Comment_121625953

One of my pet hates is canned craft beer, hopefully breweries will decide it's not worth the effort and go back to bottles

elperello

Bit of a non story really.

Any publican who can't figure out a work around for this should consider a change of occupation.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626016#Comment_121626016

They changed for a pile of reasons, all of which may make it unpopular (within breweries, not with the public) to change back:

1: cheaper than empty bottles to buy

2: lighter than bottles to ship

3: people seem totally OK paying the same amount for 440ml than a 500ml bottle

4: mobile canning lines use less work than a manual bottling line, which is what most of them used - I don't know if there's van based bottling lines. Only the big boys of craft have mechanised canning and/or bottling lines.

5: hoppy beer in cans lasts longer due to no UV damage

Number 3 there is a reason I'd be happy to go back to bottle alone. I'd also like if somewhere that sells large volumes of stuff from one brewery, say Lidl and Rye River or Aldi and O'Haras (those breweries make those stores respective own brands too) would do the German / old Dutch system of "buy a crate load, bring the crate and empties back for a decent deposit, bottles get washed and reused" but I can't see that happening.

Specials are almost definitely going to go back to bottle though.

gipi

My local serves soft drinks (coke, 7 up, etc) in 330ml cans, so they'll have to arrange to keep the cans for return.

Another local serves 500ml plastic bottles of water.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625046#Comment_121625046

Just reading this now, didn't see it earlier in the day.

If i'm collecting tin cans for art project-related purposes, would a waste collection permit still be needed? It's not really anyone business but i'd rather do these things legally., Not sure how one would go about registering a bike or a go-kart. To save with the hassle i could just use a wheelbarrow instead as i doubt that can be classed as a vehicle.

It Would require alot of spare time and excersize though. i might be able to find a way to limit my journeys without using vehicles, and its better for the environment due to less fumes in the atmosphere. A Trolley would be convenient also.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626097#Comment_121626097

Plastic bottles of water in a pub? At night when there’s no food around?

id stick to tap water myself.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626182#Comment_121626182

Art isn't commercial so it should be excluded; the second you're selling the waste on it is commercial. The fees start at 1k/year for a single county and you need public liability insurance etc

https://www.nwcpo.ie/

RobbingBandit

What happens when the sole return machine in any given store breaks down which vending machines are so often prone to doing.

Varik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626097#Comment_121626097

They've got exemption, as do most place where you'd drink it on site.

"food to go" can apply for the same but there's a few rules for the exemption to be allowed.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626215#Comment_121626215

Okay i think i get the message, i may "collect" the cans for private artistic purposes. i already have a couple of cans that are not valid for the re-turn scheme. In my process of creating art i might accidentally get some of those invalid cans mixed up with the valid cans with a deposit on them.

A can or two may accidentally make its way somehow into the RVM via someone might come and take these cans from me and then feel bad about depositing my cans and will pay me a cut of the money as reimbursement i'm thinking, for the purpose of being spent on replacing the cans they took from me.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626225#Comment_121626225

Just a guess but maybe the same as when tills are down.

You come back later.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626225#Comment_121626225

When the RVM breaks down, you'd either have to bring them up to the counter for manual inspection and get your deposit there. Or else the store might have a sign up saying where the next nearest RVM is.

If it's neither of these, then you might have to come back another time

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626249#Comment_121626249

They don’t have an exemption in terms of the 15c being added. They have an exemption as to whether they pass that charge into you and they reclaim the 15c themselves OR give you the can to keep and the customer claims the 15c.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626225#Comment_121626225

You go to a different store. What happens when a glass bank is full? You go to a different one.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626097#Comment_121626097

Either that or they can charge the deposit to the customer and let them the option to take the cans/bottles away with them

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626257#Comment_121626257

Once you have any scale at all, you aren't going to get away with using RVMs - shops will tell you to leave - and you'll need to somehow get registered as a RPO. They'll want to see your waste collection licence if they're even willing to talk to you.

Also, councils do not need particularly much to prove a case of illegal waste operations and a muddled "I collect them for art but someone else swaps them sometimes and and and" will be enough to proceed to prosecution.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626372#Comment_121626372

It's interesting to consider, but i'm not up for all that register stuff. i Think i'll give it a miss and find some other legitimate way. They're really not making this easy, i'm just trying to make a few bob from it thats all.

Another thing i was thinking i could whip around to the cafe there looking real sharpish like and with a splash of brute, and maybe sweet talk the barristas, get to know them a little, and then straight up ask for any free cans going spare. I Could even maybe give a portion of the deposit as a tip to them to show my gratitude. If all goes well, everything'll be cushty.

It Could be worth a shot anyway. After all he who dares, wins.

Rigor Mortis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624094#Comment_121624094

Sugar tax is really hard to know, because it doesnt operate in isolation, like many things. Behaviour has shifted but there were multiple causes. In the period from shortly before it was introduced there was a shift in producer behaviour. Consumer behaviour was already shifting, although the change in producer behaviour probably accelerated that. Marketing plays a big role too. virtually every new drink on the market was low or no sugar in the last few years.

MUP, not a clue, but I really doubt that that has changed consumption too much, except shifting consumption within category. But MUP was a very different tool.

Back to EPR, Costs will definitely be passed on. Absolutely agree. But ithat is the direction we are headed on this and other things.

Collection drives recycling and this scheme is all about circularity and that is why I dont believe your version works.

To be realistic, there is probably more to be learned from schemes in Estonia and Latvia than there is in Germany. Germany has been going since Adam was a boy. Those schemes were recent enough.

Everyone's use of SUPs have been rising for decades and reusables declining. Thats a trend that I think will reverse in the coming years and the new EU Packaging and Packaging Waste Regulations will speed that further.

Anyway, good chatting.

Dazler97

I Thiam its a good idea 💡 and we should bring back the pint bottles again because years ago they where delivered we drank out of them and then put them back out to be collected and re washed and the cycle continues, we should try do away with plastic, I want glass bottles back and I was in Wales last year over to see my mams boyfriend and his mam still gets the pint milk bottles delivered I was like like omg nostalgia

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626462#Comment_121626462

Pint bottles that are returned and reused by pubs still exist for Diageo products and Bulmers - they just don't do consumer returns. Similarly I'm fairly sure the small bottles of soft drinks and Ballygowan go back for reuse too.

If you buy a pint bottle of Guinness/Smithwicks/Macardles/Bulmers in an off-licence you can sometimes see the wear marks on the haunches of the bottle from being run through the bottling line multiple times. You then end up smashing it in normal glass recycling after that though.