The new recycling system

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121687462#Comment_121687462

Then the consultation wasn't neutral, because didn't retail and off licence associations provide info to its members about the scheme?

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121687851#Comment_121687851

One might suggest the scheme itself fulfills that characterisation. An effective method of onstreet recycling for carry-around bottles especially near convenience stores. Penalisation for the inclusion of plastic or metal in residual bins. Enforcement of anti-burning, effective enforcement of fly tipping (every house to have a bin contract). All of these would have assured in loving the recycling rate higher and likely at a substantially lower cost. This scheme replaces proper government/administration/local services rather than is necessary.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121687924#Comment_121687924

Tesco, at least, has been open in saying that it is rolling out the RVMs in support of an aim to obtain a bigger share of the grocery market - the coupons assist with that.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121688310#Comment_121688310

They weren't being asked by the state to provide neutral info, which is what is being suggested that the bin firms could have been asked to do.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121688390#Comment_121688390

Yip. That's the carrot for the bigger retailers. Increased footfall.

People who choose to shop in smaller retailers will now be penalised for doing so, with the obvious result that the smaller retailer will be passed over because people will not be able to reclaim their deposit.

Like you point out, at least Tesco were honest about it, when this was pointed out early on thread, the cheerleaders deemed it a conspiracy theory.

Of course the likes of Tesco were going to spend 15 million on the scheme because they just love the environment so much., nothing to do with market share or maximising profits.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121688127#Comment_121688127

is this an admission that they're in it for the money? or are you claiming shops are trying to "save the world"

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121688526#Comment_121688526

Shops have been mandated that they have to install these RVMs. If it was the money spinner you're suggesting, smaller shops would not have applied for the takeback exemption. It'll take 7 years (as per ReTurns estimation) for shops to breakeven after the initial investment. Tesco, Dunnes etc would prefer not to be part of this.

I get it, you're obsessed that the not for profit are in it for the money. I'm not, we're not going to agree. It's tiring you constantly misinterpreting what I am trying to say. You're seeing what you want to see instead of what I am trying to say.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121688538#Comment_121688538

It gives large scale shops a competitive advantage over smaller ones, a reason to use them over the smaller ones. Smaller ones simply couldn't afford the upfront cost of the RVMs, or fitting of them spacewise - while huge chains can and in the long run their RVMS will pay for themselves. That doesn't mean they can't also have a concern about losing business to the large shops.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121688538#Comment_121688538

Tesco, Dunnes etc would prefer not to be part of this.

They would prefer not be part of a legally mandated voucher scheme that drives footfall to their stores?

Have you evidence to back up your claim?

We have one of those literal chains saying the opposite, so when you are ready.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121688538#Comment_121688538

did'nt someone say earlier that there was no shareholders or investors? 4 investors was posted in the last comment on the previous page.

Are you trying to tell me these big business franchises are doing this to save the earth? are you saying they care about the environment enough to give millions away towards it? are you saying their motives are non-financial? seems quite a coincidence 4 of them would invest so much millions all at the same time for no good reason and just randomly out of the kindness of their heart.

come please, i'm not naive.

i don't think its fair that a person who travels down/up to their nearest RVM has risk of losing out on some deposits due to damage that occured in transit. its also unfair that people who are housebound are no essentially being psuedo-taxed with this if they don't find a way to partake in the RVM return scheme. There's no talking around this. it is what it is.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121688538#Comment_121688538

It's a 7 year breakeven on the direct cost of the hardware versus the direct income form the hardware apparantly.

I'd suggest that timeframe is greatly reduced if you were to include the income from the people who now end up going to the RVM in your premises and then end up shopping in your premises who wouldn't have done so before investing in these RVM's.

It's a harder income to gauge but you can't be as naive as to think the large shops don't think they'll manage to gain a larger market share over smaller shops with this scheme.....

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121688687#Comment_121688687

I was just taking ReTurns estimate.

If there's increased footfall, that wouldn't be included in estimate I assume.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121688603#Comment_121688603

They're doing it because they are legally required to do it. I didn't claim anything else.

Genghis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121687805#Comment_121687805

€39.6m will be paid annually to RVM operators (i.e. Supermarkets, usually large chain supermarkets), based on the 2.2c collection fees and 90% success rate from the c. 2bn plastic bottles and cans sold in Ireland.

Lets use that as the opportunity value / potential loss to the waste management business in Ireland (someone will be along shortly to tell us that the value of recylced aluminium and can is less than 2.2c; however 2.2c is not market related either, its an arbitrary value to reward investment in capital, and could be arbitrarily given to the waste management business on a similar bases).

While €39.6m annually will be very small money (0.2%) to a retail industry with turnover well in excess of €20bn p/a, it would be hugely significant to the waste management business with an industry turnover from domestic collection of maybe half a billion (so maybe 8% turnover). [It will also, once capital is repaid, be pure profit - in an industry where net profit is as low as 2%, ironically, 2.2c will in many cases be more profit to them than the sale of the item].

I've asked on here before if we think it is generally a good idea / in the best interest of our environment to ensure we have a viable, sustainable waste collection sector here in Ireland. Re-turn solves recycling *only* for low hanging fruit (high value, high volume, easily segregated clean waste). Once everyone is done congratulating themselves for the easy first win, we will still have to deal with other waste streams, not least dairy, food packaging and other fully recyclable materials that remain in the recycling bin.

What do we do? Having pulled the rug from under the waste management industry , do we hope they will still be around and have something to invest in tooling up to support the next wave? How will we solve complex issues like contamination, segregation, etc. Bear in mind that as we stand today, for some waste operators, paying an incinerator to deal with unsorted recycling already costs less than manually sorting waste for recycling value - which indicates a sector that was already struggling to operate effectively.

Its "convenient for everyone" to not consider all of this, but these are real long term issues that may arise from the arrival of re-turn.

In the short / medium term, price rises are inevitable for waste management companies - they still have to collect the same number of bins, they still have to sort their waste streams, they just won't have the same aggregate value. These rises will only replace lost income, they will not result in any environmental or consumer benefit, or any change to waste management processes.

Banzai600

i can see the thinking behind it, but i dont like it.

why should i pay more when we already recycle everything at home, using our green bin etc & brown bin for that matter - which we pay for. Our half size black only goes out every 8 / 10 weeks on average ( 2 person household ), thats pretty good. i'll have to store some rubbish now in order to get a refund etc and make another journey as opposed to recycling they way we normally do from home.

the government should have asked bin companies for a list of areas where they dont see high recycling numbers, and then went door to door in estates educating ppl. Its another poxy tax imo.

ppl in our estate with electric look at me buggies, dont have green or brown bins, in all the years we've been here. Yet theyre saving the planet, gimme a ****in break ffs. The same goons in your office bldg that drive the likes of a tesl@ or vw id-look at me, who throw milk cartons / paper in the black bins of a communal canteen instead of the recycling.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121688708#Comment_121688708

The trials were'nt a legal requirement though, were they?

What is your take on things like "green-tax" being applied on this scheme? in a way this deposit scheme is kind of a pesudo green tax on people who choose not to recycle, and on people who still do choose to recycle but at home with their bin provider instead of at the local RVM machine.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121688538#Comment_121688538

Shops have not been mandated that they have to install these RVMs. It's a commercial choice between installing a machine or handle returns manually.

Are Retailers obliged to have a Reverse Vending Machine (RVM) to take back empty ‘in scope’ containers?

Retailers may opt for either manual return or for automatic collection, through Reverse Vending Machines (RVMs). Retailers have the choice of whether they opt for a reverse vending machine or not. It is not compulsory for any retailer to have a reverse vending machine.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121688742#Comment_121688742

There was a similar approach taken in Belgium which was felt would not work here due to the competitive nature of the domestic waste collection market. Say for example if Panda were trying to impose conditions on their customers to recycle more etc, those customers would just change bin companies. But Belgium have since moved to or are moving to a DRS scheme.

Genghis

Someone above mentioned Tesco was quick to identify DRS as a way to possible gain market share (from smaller shops presumably).

Got me thinking - Does anyone know if a retail chain can "legally" opt to offer more than the deposit back. Could the DRS scheme become competitive between the supermarkets? Like "Get 10% extra when you return your bottles to Aldi"?

If directly giving more back was in some way illegal / not allowed by the schemes membership rules, I wonder if there is anything preventing say Tesco 'rewarding' customers to use a RVM voucher (instead of cashing it) by say giving you its value in club card points as well as the reduction on your bill.

Supermarkets routinely give back 1% value in points, or up to 20% in cash for schemes like Dunnes 'Double Saver' scheme, so a small promotion like this, especially as its greased with 2.2c per item, would be more than feasible as a way to buy loyalty.

Might be an interesting one to watch. @BoardsBottler maybe you will strike oil after all? ;)

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121688770#Comment_121688770

Shops are mandated to comply with the scheme.

Yes, you're correct. As nearly every shop has opted for RVMs, I think it's easier to refer to them in this manner. If you want to be 100% technically correct all the time, go for it.

I'm sure you understood the intent of my post.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121688752#Comment_121688752

Its been pointed out to you umpteen times, there were no trials.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121688927#Comment_121688927

yes hopefully, that would be nice aslong as the money redeemed for the cats/bottles does'nt require you to spend the entity of the voucher instore before being able to get double reward points, because reward points as it is already, sucks lol. its like 1 euro back currently for every 100 euro you spend. But then they moved the goalpost twice for the minimum threshhold to something like 1.50 or 2.50 (cant remember which it is) as the mimumum cashout for when they're sending out the vouchers, and they've also removed alot of the offers and value clubard vouchers used to offer. There was some stuff where you could get x4 or x5 times the value by spending the voucher somewhere else like a restraunt or holiday or cinema, they got nerfed drasticly in value now and have went down to x2 or less. i'm watching tesco closely with their prices on certain things and either avoiding lots of it, or waiting for certain non-perishable items to go on sale so i can take advantage and stock up.

i might strike a tiny bit of oil from the bins where the rejected cans/bottles go. Lets just say the labels of damaged bottles are useful aslong as the barcode isnt damaged. tins can also be collected and returned to the scrap yard at a rate of 56-65 = 1 euro, but thats very penny pinching and almost makes each can worth something just under 2 cent.

as for buying loyalty, it feels like tesco currently bully people into getting a clubcard by removing all of their special offers from public participation and marking them "for loyalty card memebers only" as if its something special, but the same offers and even some better offers already existed before this happening. another thing that annoys me is constantly things that are on sale at a discount of %20 saying save 50%, because a day earlier previous to the 50% sale the price of the item was intentionally increased to make the percentage look like the person is saving more than they actually are. is there a tesco thread on boards? or something like a price watch? i seen a frugal section but it was just people spamming coupon codes and refferals and super old outdated stuff

eeepaulo

Will the existing stock (without the extra charge) be removed from shelves on thursday?

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121688982#Comment_121688982

you obviously know what i mean and what i reffer to as trials. And also alot of people have said they were trials, despite 2 people here saying constantly that they was not trials. Even the newspaper articles call them trials. You entirely disregarded the rest of what i said and didnt even respond to it at all.

nitpicking trials to get out of the rest? thats really dishonest and an argument made in bad faith

the "trials" was much better than the actual scheme itself. atleast it rewarded people and didnt require everyone to pay extra, or punish anyone who recycles at home

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121689059#Comment_121689059

There's a transition period of 4 months. Shops can sell non-ReTurn cans in this time.

Existing stock will be rejected by RVMs as the barcode will be incorrect.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121689059#Comment_121689059

sadly no, if anything they might go on sale at a discounted price if we're lucky. The logic in buying them cheap would be saving more money than one would when compared to the prices of the stock with the logo and extra charge on them.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121689069#Comment_121689069

They were nothing to do with ReTurn. They were not trials for ReTurn and the entire fundamental underling financial model was different.

You're free to read the consultation documents that are publicly available. The majority of retailers recommended against the current scheme. Lidl were the only (that I can see) that did not. They're very much the exception.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121689084#Comment_121689084

well the question still stands, was the trials or whatever you call them, a legal requirement? yes or no?

they where much better than the actual scheme itself in terms of rewarding people and also didnt require everyone to pay extra, or punish anyone who recycles at home. Maybe they could learn a thing or two from them trials instead of being greedy and selfish and inconveniencing the majority of people at home who they are lucky to already have recycling in the first place.

What is your take on things like green tax?

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121689117#Comment_121689117

I don't know what "green tax" is.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121689059#Comment_121689059

No.

But what it guarantees is you will stuck behind someone in a queue who is bemused by the fact the machine is rejecting non qualifying bottles and cans.

I imagine these will be fúcked in a hedge or thrown in a general waste bin.

Which doesn't matter, because this scheme has very little to do with recycling.