The new recycling system

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704062#Comment_121704062

I could be wrong as I do not know what the legal requirement is for a SEL but the can is €3.25 not €3.10 + €0.15. Technically, you're not paying the deposit. Lidl have baked it into the price because the can does not have a ReTurn logo but would be accepted by any of their RVMs. However, these cans will be accepted with or without the ReTurn logo at RVMs because the barcode on both cans are the same.

See slide 36 for SEL mock ups by ReTurn:

https://re-turn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Re-turn-Retailer-Toolkit-Final-10.07.2023-1.pdf

If someone were to buy the can and the receipt said €3.10 + €0.15, I'd agree with you and Boggles that Lidl are wrong to do it that way.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704084#Comment_121704084

I'm asking a legitimate question.

You are doing nothing but belittling people for doing similar and have done all thread.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704083#Comment_121704083

Based on that SEL, yes.

The can with the ReTurn logo and without the ReTurn logo have the same barcode. The can will be accepted at any RVM in the country with or without the ReTurn logo.

If the receipt says €3.25, I'm correct in my thinking. If the receipt says €3.10 and €0.15 then you are correct and I'd agree with what Lidl are doing is not correct. You need the receipt imo.

TheChizler

What a disaster, we've been told constantly for weeks that no logo means no refund, suddenly on day -1 there are exceptions. So either by the time people buying this get around to drinking it and have to recycle it unless they have a weirdly amazing memory they're either going to forget it's applicable and put it in the home recycling bin, or can't remember which can exactly the exceptions applied to and try to return every can without a logo, leading to frustration at the RVMs, calling the manager, and delaying everyone trying to comply. The "simple" system has become confusing before it even starts.

But of course we have posters above saying, well it's only 15c so what harm. The same 15c the same posters were saying you'd be mad to throw away. The scheme must be defended at all costs!

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704095#Comment_121704095

You are answering a question I didn't ask.

Where on the website does it state having an international barcode precludes the product from having the logo?

It's moot whether the machines take them back or not. The Logo is important for numerous reasons.

If the receipt says €3.25, I'm correct in my thinking. If the receipt says €3.10 and €0.15 then you are correct and I'd agree with what Lidl are doing is not correct. You need the receipt imo.

The can qualifies for a 15 cent rebate and if as you suggest Lidl have not charged that 15 cent deposit, that is fraudulent. Clearly.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704134#Comment_121704134

We are in the transition period, shops can stock cans with or without the logo. From June 1st, the cans (including international cans) must have the logo. Until then, Lidl and everyone else can stock them.

The can qualifies for a 15 cent rebate and if as you suggest Lidl have not charged that 15 cent deposit, that is fraudulent. Clearly.

That is incorrect. If you bought this can last week and kept it, that can also qualifies for the rebate. Same if you bought it last year. You can put all of them in an RVM and get your 15c "back". Were they all fraudulent sales too? You need the receipt to show if Lidl have charged the deposit or not. The deposit must a separate line on the receipt. That is the only way in this scenario to know if they charged a deposit.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704080#Comment_121704080

Now there is a brilliant example of helpful advice. Hopefully will be generously acknowledged with loads of thanks.

Boggles

If anyone is going to any of these machines today, try fire in a can without the logo.

I have a feeling it may pay out.

The clear financial risk during the transition period, comes from the use of existing barcodes, which may result in payments to consumers on stock, on which no deposit has been paid.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704153#Comment_121704153

We are in the transition period, shops can stock cans with or without the logo

Who suggested they couldn't?

Again my question is quite simple.

Where on the website does it state having an international barcode precludes the product from having the logo?

It's okay you know, you are not getting paid to defend every single aspect of this scheme.

It is perfectly okay to just say, yeah they fúcked up there.

---------------------------------------

That is incorrect. If you bought this can last week and kept it, that can also qualifies for the rebate. Same if you bought it last year. You can put all of them in an RVM and get your 15c "back". Were they all fraudulent sales too? You need the receipt to show if Lidl have charged the rebate or not. The deposit must a separate line on the receipt. That is the only way in this scenario to know if they charged a deposit.

Da Fuq?

L1011

If the barcode is registered as international, it will. I linked to a list some pages ago

ax530

I've an empty bottle on my desk - no 'new' bar code. Should I this l throw it in recycling bin or bring it up to the new machine in SuperValu to recycle?

Thought only bottles with new code work on the machine but from sounds messages here that not the case.

Or is it only Lidl machines?

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704017#Comment_121704017

Thanks for your concern.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704180#Comment_121704180

Please try if you get a chance.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704175#Comment_121704175

Where on the website does it state having an international barcode precludes the product from having the logo?

From June 1st, all cans require the ReTurn logo. Including those with an international barcode. That requirement does not apply today. Lidl and everyone else can stock the can in its current form.

Lidl can up the price of the can by €0.15 and tell customers if you put this in an RVM even without the logo, it will be accepted and you'll get €0.15.

So what exactly have they done wrong?

If Lidl have on the receipt, €3.10 + €0.15, then I agree with you that what they have done is wrong. I think the receipt would just show €3.25 in which case, you have not actually paid a deposit.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704193#Comment_121704193

From June 1st, all cans require the ReTurn logo

Again no one asked that. I'll try once more.

As bottles without the Re-turn logo are not eligible in the scheme, they should be recycled normally.

Please point out to evidence that makes that statement false. Because that is your claim.

If Lidl have on the receipt, €3.10 + €0.15, then I agree with you that what they have done is wrong. I think the receipt would just show €3.25 in which case, you have not actually paid a deposit.

So I haven't paid a deposit, so I can take that can to Dunnes and get a voucher?

Genghis

Just back from a Centra, one that is big enough and busy enough to have it's own RVM. A v. busy, 24hr, 5 till place attached to a 8 pump service station and deli, they would imho sell thousands of bottles / cans a day.

I wanted to see what DRS stock they had available this morning, 1 Feb, and maybe see how they were managing dual stock.

Actually I could not find a single DRS item for sale, not one. I checked shelf pricing in both the fridges and aisles, I also checked a few items to see if the re-turn logo was on them. No new price tags, no logos, DRS bottles and cans not yet on the shelves.

This is all above board, of course, obviously they need to move old stock before they add new, etc, and have 4 months to do it in law.

However, consider this: every container they sell today, and most containers they sell every day until they mostly sell re-turn items WILL reject at an RVM.

Now here on boards, we all know old stock is still okay to sell, we all know customers are buying without a deposit, we all know these old items had no re-turn logo, and we know the machines will reject them - because we are all engaged deeply with this scheme.

HOWEVER, anyone who has not been as engaged as us may well only know what the news has told them, i.e that from 1 Feb plastic bottles bought in Ireland and in good condition can be brought to a machine for money-back.

I expect much confusion as consumers who buy an item AFTER 1 Feb find said item rejected at an RVM - probably at their first visit to one. 'Why is this bottle being rejected?" Retailers will be fronting this confusion, while they can say 'no logo, no deposit, no return' some customers undoubtedly will not get it having stored up their bottles, brought them in, and be annoyed, etc.

Maybe my Centra is not representative; but if other stores have lots of old stock like they do, could this confusion be a big problem for the scheme?

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704193#Comment_121704193

We were told all along -

1 all cans in the scheme would have a logo

2 pos signs for cans in the scheme would show price plus deposit

3 that cans could be returned for refund at any RVM

With that shelf sign that was posted last night they contradicted all three.

creedp

According to some you're worrying too much about minor incidentals. In summary the scheme is brilliant and no criticism is justified😀.

For the rest of us mere mortals this kind of ambiguity is not helpful for the smooth implementation of the Scheme. For me up to this point one aspect of the Scheme was sacrosanct, a container needed to have a ReTurn logo for a deposit to be charged and refunded. Now it seems not necessarily. Roll on.....

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704215#Comment_121704215

Yes, you can take that can to an RVM at Dunnes and get €0.15 for it even though no deposit has been paid on it. I do not believe it would be accepted at a manual return site because it has no logo.

Details on International Barcodes can be found here:

https://re-turn.ie/wp-content/uploads/International-Barcodes-Cross-Border-Challenges-FINAL.pdf

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704111#Comment_121704111

Disaster is a bit of a strong word

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704255#Comment_121704255

The ambiguity doesn't help and @Genghis makes some good points above. There will be a lot of confusion this week.

Cans will typically need the ReTurn logo on them for them to work. Your coca colas, club oranges, pepsis etc. Anything with an international barcode is an exception. These are limited. Kinnegar is an example. Cans with international barcodes (i.e. a can of Kinnegar sold abroad) will work in Irish RVMs until the end of time under the current scheme.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704281#Comment_121704281

What about annoyance ?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704260#Comment_121704260

Yes, you can take that can to an RVM at Dunnes and get €0.15 for it even though no deposit has been paid on it. 

So Dunnes are going to lose money? Or the scheme is going to lose money?

And the consumer is going to gain money?

I do not believe it would be accepted at a manual return site because it has no logo.

Well clearly, but it shouldn't be eligible in the first place without a logo.

Again that isn't my opinion.

As bottles without the Re-turn logo are not eligible in the scheme, they should be recycled normally.

ednwireland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704219#Comment_121704219

my aldi had nothing yesterday, bought fake Fanta, with no logos. can't imagine they will swap all stock overnight.

oh and on the news this morning they were stressing here's my "clean" bottle going into the machine. like that's going to happen.

I'm guessing bottles with something in get rejected on weight. but no-one will be rinsing bottles.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704288#Comment_121704288

Anything with an international barcode is an exception

An exception without a logo? So they are exempt from having a logo and qualify for the scheme?

Listen I know you are frantically going through documents to make that true. But it's false.

Unless you have actual text from one of those documents that you can highlight and link to that makes your claim true, have you?

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704343#Comment_121704343

Dunnes will lose no money. ReTurn will pay them €0.15. The consumer will theoretically gain money.

In all point of sale Retailers must display the Deposit Fee separate to the product price and as a separate line item on receipts.

As per the example in Lidl, no deposit fee is charged. They are advertising the can as €3.25 not €3.10 + €0.15.

https://re-turn.ie/wp-content/uploads/Re-turn-Retailer-Need-To-Know-.pdf

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704260#Comment_121704260

Thanks for the clarification.

Your average consumer is not going to look up a database of barcodes.

All I'm saying is that Lidl messed up.

I don't know if it's one store or all of them.

The issue needs to be sorted asap.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704361#Comment_121704361

I've already linked you the International Barcode challenges.

If a product is sold in Ireland with an international barcode instead of an ROI barcode, there is a surcharge. The reason being, if you buy the can in Germany and bring it back to Ireland, it won't have the logo and it will be accepted by the RVM. For sale within Ireland, the can requires the logo. However, that comes into effect on June 1st not February 1st.

To charge a deposit, the can would have to have the logo.

You simply don't read what people are saying and refuse to accept any other opinion but your own.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704393#Comment_121704393

It would have been clearer if Lidl didn't say anything and just charged people €3.25 with no little caveat saying these cans work in the machine. There may be a bit of pandemonium at the RVMs this weekend.

These cans will eventually have the logo on them and the confusion will be gone. Anywhere that sells Kinnegar will see them same thing. It doesn't matter is you buy it in Lidl or your local off license.

Red Silurian

Interestingly the map of return locations on the website was unavailable this morning and I leaving home, seems to be partly live now, I say partly because there's some locations that definitely have machines that I have seen with my own eyes but are not on the map.

Not a disaster by any stretch of the imagination but not the most confident start either