The new recycling system

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704431#Comment_121704431

Thanks again for the explanation.

It's confusing if different shops start doing their own thing.

It needs to be the same everywhere.

I'm not using this as a stick to beat the system and I'm sure it will all work out eventually.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704389#Comment_121704389

So back to my original point which you took issue with is what Lidl are doing is illegal.

They are clearly selling a product that is not eligible for the scheme and as you suggest without a deposit which defrauds the scheme.

Again 3 simple things to qualify for the scheme.

1. Logo
2. Deposit collected and deposit clearly stated.
3. Products have to be able to be returned to all RVMs or manual collection points

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/8526d-irelands-deposit-return-scheme-is-now-live/#:~:text=From%20today%2C%201%20February%202024,your%20deposit%20back%20in%20full.

From today, 1 February 2024, when you buy a drink in a plastic bottle or aluminium can with the Re-turn logo, you will pay a small deposit in addition to the price of the drink.

Re-turn is overseeing the roll-out of the Deposit Return Scheme and foresees more than 2,000 return points being ready to accept returns and refund deposits from today. Larger retailers and some smaller retailers have installed Reverse Vending Machines, or RVMs, at their premises to automate the deposit return process. Nearly 200 smaller retailers will operate the scheme on a manual, over-the-counter basis.

Consumers will receive the deposit back when they return the empty, undamaged plastic bottle or can (with the Re-turn logo) to participating shops and supermarkets nationwide, either through a Reverse Vending Machine (RVM) or manually, over the counter. RVMs issue customers with a voucher that can be redeemed at the till against store purchases or as a cash refund. If containers are returned over the counter, retailers will provide a refund once the container is undamaged and features the Re-turn logo. Consumers are advised not to crush or squeeze the plastic bottles and cans.

------------------------------------------------------------

So since you have made yourself the unofficial unpaid spin doctor for this scheme?

What gives?

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704484#Comment_121704484

The clear financial risk during the transition period, comes from the use of existing international barcodes, which may result in payments to consumers on stock, on which no deposit has been paid

That is what is happening here.

https://re-turn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Transition-Period-Workshop-4-July-final.pdf

Slide 9 and 10 clearly outlines the financial risk associated with international barcodes. This is an example of that risk.

Your entire argument is based on the fact a deposit is being paid. No deposit is being paid on this item. It is not an in-scope product. The SEL clearly shows that no deposit is being paid. The can is €3.25. Lidl are legally required to display the price as €3.10 + €0.15 where a deposit is being paid. They are legally required to show the deposit on the receipt as a separate item. You are ignoring both of these points.

It just happens to be that this can will be accepted by an RVM with or without the logo. That is not illegal.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704452#Comment_121704452

Put in my eircode and it shows me one, which isn't the nearest either

Scroll to the map area manually and it shows the four I know of in the area!

There are two airside in Dublin Airport, which is better than I've found in any other place with similar - you usually just have to give up getting it back if you buy after security.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704361#Comment_121704361

I think I see the problem here, is it the case that if you robotically defend the scheme you gain the ability to mentally scan and lookup barcodes and hence the inconsistencies and confusing labelling on the shelves aren't a problem for these higher beings? They lose the ability to relate to us lesser mortals with no uplink to the international barcode system 😉

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704538#Comment_121704538

The clear financial risk during the transition period, comes from the use of existing international barcodes, which may result in payments to consumers on stock, on which no deposit has been paid

I already provided that link.

No where does it suggest any sort of exemption, if he did you would have provided it already.

It seems to me there is a chance this thing has just gone live and will accept everything, well the RVMs at least.

I also imagine ordering stock from or going over the border in the North is going to become quite popular.

You will be saving twice.

Also why did Lidl bother pointing out this "secret" when they were not obliged to?

They are perfectly entitled to have non qualifying stock on their shelves.

odyssey06

The map is missing a bunch of Supervalus - Killester and Raheny have RVMs but they are not on the map.

And looks like the Supervalu Sutton one will be busy if it is covering all of the Howth peninsula.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704668#Comment_121704668

Its been made abundantly clear that these containers have an international barcode and will be accepted by an RVM indefinitely. These containers do not have a ReTurn logo and Lidl are perfectly entitled to sell them until June 1st. After June 1st, they must have the logo.

Also why did Lidl bother pointing out this "secret" when they were not obliged to?

I've no idea. It's confusing for customers. I have a guess as to why but that would just start a back and forth.

With the current information at hand (i.e. only the SEL and not the receipt), can you finally accept that Lidl have not broken any laws? That this container has no deposit being charged on it under the scheme and that the can would simply be accepted in any RVM?

If someone buys the can and it says on the receipt a deposit has been charged, that's a different story.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704709#Comment_121704709

With the current information at hand (i.e. only the SEL and not the receipt), can you finally accept that Lidl have not broken any laws? That this container has no deposit being charged on it under the scheme and that the can would simply be accepted in any RVM?

If someone buys the can and it says on the receipt a deposit has been charged, that's a different story.

Why would I accept something you yourself don't know?

Its been made abundantly clear that these containers have an international barcode and will be accepted by an RVM indefinitely.

Really, where on the government press releases or the Re-Turn website has this been made "abundantly clear"?

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704741#Comment_121704741

You made the statement Lidl committed fraud. You made the statement that Lidl were breaking the law. You have provided zero evidence to support that claim.

Have Lidl broken the law?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704749#Comment_121704749

I posed the question based on the abundantly clear eligibility criteria stated by the government and the operators of the scheme. I provided all links and highlighted the relevant parts.

So again.

Its been made abundantly clear that these containers have an international barcode and will be accepted by an RVM indefinitely.

Really, where on the government press releases or the Re-Turn website has this been made "abundantly clear"?

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704767#Comment_121704767

Have Lidl broken the law?

You've been provided with all relevant links regarding international barcodes. There are several PDFs which contain this information. If that is not abundantly clear information then I don't know what is. Its written in black and white. You want to drag this down a semantics route to avoid answering the above. Have Lidl broken the law? You stated they they have.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704281#Comment_121704281

Ah fair enough, my use of hyperbole undoes the point at hand, the scheme is perfect and crystal clear!

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704583#Comment_121704583

Only shows one airside on the map unless I'm missing something? Great to have one at least... The nearest one to Shannon airport airside is listed as Dunnes in Shannon town 😞😞

Map needing an update on day one is not the best look for the scheme!

Ossian Smyth on the radio this morning promising a V2 with the barcodes on the base of cans and bottles to allow for crushing... Watch this space and be sure to hold him to account on that

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704836#Comment_121704836

There is no WH Smith landside in T2 anymore, its a Spar now, so it has to be the big one in the departures area. The other one says airside explicitly.

Barcode on the base of bottles is going to be absolutely impossible as there isn't a flat surface anywhere, or any ability to have one - the bottles would have no structural integrity. Cans would need a different barcoding system to have any chances and even that would be technically very difficult and likely need different cans.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704749#Comment_121704749

I doubt very much Lidl or any other retailer will break the law with respect to this Scheme. But I have to say that this issue really undermine all the bluster about the simplicity and convenience of this Scheme for the consumer.

Granted during the transitional period up to 1 June we were told that you should expect to be able to buy cans without a logo as these were old stock so you would pay no deposit and just dump them in your recycling bin as before...no biggie.

Now we hear ah hold on a small proportion of those non logo cans may actually be fed into RVM and qualify for a refund because of some class of an international bar code thingy. Damn it anyway I'll have to get back to those people I persuaded, based on my Boards acquired expertise, cans and bottles with no logo means no refund is actually incorrect even if you don't pay the deposit in the first instance. Que quizzical looks all around.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704851#Comment_121704851

At any stage have I said what Lidl have done is not confusing?

Boggles claimed Lidl have broken the law. They clearly have not. This entire discussion is around whether Lidl have or have not broken the law. Do you think Lidl have broken the law?

People who dislike the scheme seem to want to drag it to a different argument instead of accepting Lidl have done nothing illegal here. That's my only point. Lidl have not broken the law.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704789#Comment_121704789

It's buried in PDFs I can't find. 😂

So, Nope not abundantly clear at all, in fact one lad on here that seems to know everything stated as much.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121614251#Comment_121614251

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704872#Comment_121704872

Have Lidl broken the law?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704864#Comment_121704864

Boggles claimed Lidl have broken the law. They clearly have not.

I asked the question.

Now neither you or me know if it includes a deposit, do we?

So there is nothing clear is there?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704878#Comment_121704878

Neither of us know, is that fair and accurate?

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704888#Comment_121704888

If it ends the back and forth, sure.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704864#Comment_121704864

I think I have agreed with you, to the extent that I can, that Lidl aren't breaking the law.

Im wondering if the confusion caused by this 'some non logo cans on which you don't pay a deposit actually qualify for a deposit return as long as they have an appropriate international bar code thingy' could be classed as disinformation or misinformation on the part of the Scheme. Ah well will be great craic on social media and on the likes of Joe Duffy over the next few days.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704928#Comment_121704928

From June 1st, every container sold in Ireland will require the logo whether they have an international barcode or not. There are a little over 2000 registered products with international logos.

Is the statement that to get the 15c from the machine you require the can to have a logo incorrect information? Yes, technically. You're right, it is technically misinformation.

But I struggle to think of a better way for them to communicate the message. They don't want people putting international cans/bottles bought in other countries without the logo in the RVMs because ReTurn lose money on it as no deposit was paid. I think I'd make the same decision messaging wise as they have even if its not 100% true.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704909#Comment_121704909

The containers have to have the return logo on them. There’s a special barcode as per the FAQs on the website “All ‘in scope’ beverage containers must feature the Re-turn symbol and a new national (or international) barcode. All producers must comply with the labelling guidelines as set out in the Technical Specifications and Labelling Manual provided by Re-turn.”.

This morning you are telling me that it is abundantly clear what your wrote in that post is bollíx.

It can't be both.

😂

Sarn

With deposits also being charged on items without the return logo it is going to get confusing in the short term. Especially for small one off purchases with no logo where a receipt isn’t provided/requested - has a deposit been paid or not? Get that receipt if you want to be sure!

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704928#Comment_121704928

I have been reliably informed on here that if Lidl are charging a deposit for those products that they are 100% breaking the law, although I imagine the U turn on that will be just as hilarious.

But forget about potential law breaking.

The question is why are Lidl advertising in store that this product is eligible for the scheme when it clearly doesn't meet the criteria.

Whether you can get a nice free bonus of free money off it out or not is moot.

Best case scenario at the very least is it will just cause confusion and cost the scheme (we are paying for) money.

So were Lidl told to this or did they do it themselves, did they receive the go ahead to do it from Re-Turn?

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704986#Comment_121704986

i understand where you're coming from, but i think its possible LIDL did not break the law (we have no real way of knowing unless someone rings the gards lol) but seriously, you're also right about what the website says.

it is possible the website was bluffing all along, and that they just didnt want people holding/hoarding cans and then returning them day 1 when the scheme goes live, so that they say that stuff on the website to put people off of the idea of holding onto their non-logo cans

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704849#Comment_121704849

Ah I see, of course that map is so unreliable there might be one at the spar, and in T1 as well

Most cans already have text on the base of the can and a barcode there has been proposed for the last few months by the small retailers so I doubt it would be difficult to implement

feelings

So from today, I'll pay a DRS fee for the pleasure of bringing my bottle/can back to store, but it'll get rejected unless it has the DRS barcode? So where do I go to get my DRS fee back over the next few weeks/months? I'm a little confused over the process during this bedding in phase.