Dispute with second hand car dealer over consumer rights

Designator

Hi all

wondering if anyone has advice here .

bought a second hand car off a registered car sales 7 weeks ago and two weeks after

purchase the fan belt snapped which he covered the cost of repair . Then the other day I had a check engine light and the car went into limp mode so brought it to the local mechanic and they told me Mercedes advised them that the gearbox will need to be replaced. This could easily cost thousands and certainly isn’t something I’d be happy with paying for when I only bought the car less than two months ago. Consumer rights told me that I’m entitled to repair , replace or refund in accordance with consumer laws even though the seller told me when I was buying it that there’s no warranty . But consumer laws override that. So now the seller is saying it has to be 3 months or 3,000km , which consumer rights also told me is false . So I’ve requested a refund which the seller isn’t playing ball with so have been advised by the consumer rights commission to send a formal letter and take it from there.

just wondering has anyone here had a similar dispute and how did it end up?

consumer rights seen in my favour so hopefully I can get a refund

Rows Grower

Did you put many miles up on it?

Designator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464003#Comment_121464003

About 3000 miles I think in two months , mentioned this to the consumer rights crowd on the phone and they told me mileage doesn’t come into it , that if I can determine that the product isn’t fit for purpose within a reasonable time from sale that I’m entitled to replacement , repair or refund . And cars are made to be driven and for a car to be undriveable less than two months after buying it that’s not what you’d expect

champchamp

Why would you buy a car from a dealer that they said there is no warranty on? Red flag there straightaway.

mickdw

Why would you buy off a dealer and accept that there is no warranty?

Is this a very very very cheap car?

Designator

Because I know myself that consumer rights laws supersede any agreement like that with a dealer , so regardless of him saying there’s no warranty , the consumer rights laws state that any registered car sales has to provide warranty so I knew realistically I had warranty under the law . He wanted an extra €1500 on top of the price to add warranty but I knew I didn’t need to pay that cause in accordance with the law I’m entitled to warranty anyway

road_high

Depends a lot on the context- is this a cheap older car (older premium makes are notoriously expensive to repair) or was it a newer used model from a franchise?

Designator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464220#Comment_121464220

It’s a premium make 12 year old car

T-Maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464483#Comment_121464483

With high mileage? If it had happened sooner but 5000km and 2 months later I reckon you're going to struggle.

ottolwinner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464781#Comment_121464781

I thought the op said 3000km put up on it.

OP did you inform the seller when offered the warranty at a price that you knew the consumer rights? Just wondering if you had would he have advised against buying that particular car presuming he knew more about its condition.

Padre_Pio

The seller gets to choose the option of repair replace or refund I believe.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464167#Comment_121464167

So what do you mean by warranty? You say you have warranty, but what exactly does that mean, what does it cover, what does it entitle you to? Did the dealer limit liability by making clear that this vehicle was not warrantable? (Yes, they can do that to an extent, and often have to with ball of **** trade-ins that they might have).

Its a constant problem with people talking about consumer rights, it is always very sparse on details about what the terms actually mean in a court of law. I'm not being smart here or trying to defend the dealer but you may need to answer that question if you want to bring them to court. Judges don't want to hear "Consumer rights says they have to" as if those are magic words, they want to know the legal and logical reasoning why.

You will also need to clarify what exactly happened that required a gearbox replacement, nobody can answer who is liable until they establish what it is they were liable for. I don't mean the repair cost, I mean the reason there is a repair needed in the first place. What failed that caused the bigger issue? A sensor? A synchro? An oil seal? Because when you know the answer to that then you can answer the question of who's fault it was that the part failed.

Consider this for example, if it is a known issue with the model then why isn't Mercedes paying for it? And if Mercedes can wash their hands of it, why does a dealer 12 years later become liable for Mercedes known manufacturing defect? Thats the sort of thing that I would be arguing to the court if I were the dealer.

This isn't a new car, it is a 12 year old with undetermined mileage that clocked up another 3000miles in 2 months. So what was the root cause of the fault? Does it even need a gearbox at all? Is there anything the dealer can point at that will muddy the waters and leave you holding the baby?

It sounds as if the seller has no interest in engaging with you, he knows it is all bad news for him, he sold a 12 year old car for probably a few hundred profit and now might be lumbered with a bill of thousands so he will want to dodge it if he can. If I were in your shoes I would want to clarify exactly why the vehicle needs a gearbox, confirm exactly why the dealer is liable for that cause of fault, then go straight to an actual solicitor and request they aggressively pursue a refund. Just make sure to ignore SIMI or any consumer rights hotlines, as they have no actual power or authority.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464167#Comment_121464167

What consumer law says you have a warranty when you buy a used car? and what are the terms of that warranty. You seem to be interpretating consumer rights comments as a full unlimited warranty. But that's obviously not the case. Everything is limited.

You were specifically aware that there was no warranty when you purchased. I think its unwise to interpret that as "I knew realistically I had warranty under the law"

Designator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464990#Comment_121464990

Well according to consumer rights when they told me the exact law over the phone , every car when bought from a registered car sales has a 3 month warranty , even if an agreement is stated between buyer and seller that there’s no warranty , the consumer rights law 2022 supersedes this and a warranty has to be honoured regardless. So I don’t think the consumer rights authority are lying over the phone to me . It’s literally the law

Seth Brundle

A phine call nis worth the paper it is written on! You should get the specific piece of legislation that backs this up before challenging the dealer.

Rows Grower

You should send the formal letter as advised by consumer rights but I'd say you have a better chance of winning the Lotto than you have of getting a refund.

amber2

What’s on your bill of sale regarding warranty. You said you agreed a purchase price of the car for a cheaper price knowing this meant it was without the warranty. The quality of the vehicle reflects the price you paid. Maybe if the garage is registered as an simi dealer (society of the Irish motor industry) they may be worth a call. Did your mechanic inspect?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465067#Comment_121465067

Either the person you spoke to on the phone miss spoke, or possibly you heard what you wanted to hear. Warranties aren’t an entitlement, they are optional and often offered either as an incentive to the buyer, or as an optional cost.

I suspect you will struggle to find legislation to support your viewpoint on warranty entitlement, particularly when it was stated by the seller that there was no warranty (why you didn’t run at that stage is a mystery) so I wouldn’t go stating that as fact to the car dealer.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer/shopping/guarantees-and-warranties/

GavPJ

What do you mean by "registered" dealer / "registered" car sales?

Registered with who?

RurtBeynolds

No point focusing in on warrantees. The garage didn't give one and the OP doesn't have one (as it is defined in the link from Dav010).

The question is whether the OP's consumer rights entitle him to a repair/replacement/refund.

I would not be so confident in the OPs shoes.

10-10-20

So your vision of second-hand car-sales is that you can buy any old return which just rolled in with "no warranty" (ie intercepted from the scrap-heap) and then just rock back-up within 3 months of the purchase and claim your next upgrade on the basis of consumer law? Some bang of entitlement here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465067#Comment_121465067

Not sure why you're asking here if you already knew that you had this 3 month warranty. Did he not mention that it was a "gate-post warranty"? 😁

MojoMaker

Absolutely zero chance OP, sorry.

Actually less than zero.

tommythecat

Was this the guy?

mr c

"Under the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980, a car must be in roadworthy condition when sold and has to be fit for purpose. If it's not, the buyer has comeback, irrespective of any get- out clauses the dealers may think they have."

https://thecai.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/USEDCARWARRANTIESOct10.pdf

Even though some dealers state "sold without warranty" the O.P.is correct

A buisnes do not have the same rights as a private seller even if they say sold without warranty that holds no weight

In Ireland the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980, superceeds everything else,provided the person You bought it of is registered as a Sole Trader or a LTD Company

If the person who sold the vehicle does not repair or refund (refund time has passed i.i.r.c it is 30 days for that) remedy will be with the smalls claims court to the value of a maximum of 2k

It is 25 euro to apply for a smallls claim with the courts

https://www.courts.ie/how-apply

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465418#Comment_121465418

I suspect you would find that a 12 yr old car would not be viewed the same way as a brand new one. The car may well have been roadworthy when bought, the op did drive it for 3k kms. But for the sake of €25, you are right, let a judge decide.

mr c

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465455#Comment_121465455

Yes but with in 3 months I would guess "not know" that engine and gearbox are covered there hence why You always get 3 months on both of them

Maybe someone actually knows the exact ins and outs of that part

Drifter100

Not a chance here I`m afraid. Seriously who on earth would buy a 12 year old car anyway and expect a warranty. How can anyone guarantee a 12 year old piece of machinery.

JVince

Be very very careful what some person on the phone says to you about "rights". It has been shown many times that they give out basic information that in many situations do not reflect the actual issue.

A car dealer or any person selling a used item can sell "without warranty" if they make it clear before purchase. (seems they did that here) There are some caveats in that any fault they know of cannot be hidden or information kept from the buyer.

You have driven 3,000miles / 5,000km. That's a fair bit of driving and therefore the fault that has appeared is highly unlikely to have been known by the seller and therefore you do not seem to have a case.

Most laws will have an "except where" type clause. EG, you cannot stop on the hard shoulder of a motorway - except where it is an emergency.

Buying used goods is where there are exceptions and buying used goods where it has been stated clearly to you that there is no warranty, gives even more exceptions. So in this particular case and from the information you have provided, I can't see where the seller is at fault.

Designator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465418#Comment_121465418

thank you, finally someone who understands what Im going off here.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465418#Comment_121465418

Don't just quote the name of the sale of goods act, everybody already knows the name of it. Instead, tell the OP exactly why the dealer should have to pay for this repair in this specific situation?

Is a 12 year old car considered exactly the same as a brand new car? Because if it is not, then just stating "Sale of goods act" is meaningless. The OP will need to argue their case based on the facts of what actually happened.

Designator

Lads ,what Im doing is saying what I have been told by numerous different people working for the consumer rights, and I myself challenged what they were saying the same as yourselves are. I asked them repeatedly even though the dealer stated there was no warranty do I still have entitlements and was told " Any agreement of no warranty or anything as such is superseded by the consumer rights laws 2022 " , the problem is most people arent aware that they are entitled to this and therefore dont challenge it. and if its deemed that the product is unsuitable for the purpose its intended for , i.e "driving" then they buyer is entitled to repair, replace or refund. Ive been on the phone with numerous people whos job it is to know consumer rights inside out and Ive asked them every question under the sun to make sure that I have it right and I doubt that they are all telling me lies. Theres laws there for a reason, would be a different story if I bought it privately, but this is a registered car sales business which the consumer rights operators also confirmed and told me Im well within my rights to request a solution at no cost to myself.

I know it might sound crazy considering the age of the car ,etc. but thats the law apparently