The UK had to come to Ireland's aid as a Russian submarine was 'hovering' 12 miles from Cork harbour

satguy

NATO wanted,, (and when we say NATO we mean the USA) .. To place missiles right up against the Russian west border, and had bribed that nut job Volodymyr Zelenskyy to let it happen.

But we here in Ireland have done nothing to Russia, and are in no danger from them.

If some Google fiber optic cable passes by our coast, why does that make us responsible for it's protection.

Maybe the USA will let Russia put some of their missiles on the island of Cuba, and things will balance out again.

An Claidheamh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494908#Comment_121494908

You have just completed the Gammon armchair general bingo card:

blame SF check

Ireland is ruled by the EU check

EU worse since UK left (good riddance) check

Britain bailed out Ireland check

Anything else?

Something about the Pope or how Churchill killed Hitler?

I’m no fan of Russia, but to believe they are responsible for uncontrolled illegal immigration (from many British commonwealth and French colonies) is pure propaganda

An Claidheamh

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk/2004/jun/22/world.iran

I stopped believing in British sea power after they repeatedly got humiliated.

It’s all for show now

In fact, they seem to prefer hanging around Ireland and close to home, probably for the best

duck.duck.go

Then why are Russia pushing migrants into europe

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67555626

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497817#Comment_121497817

Ah here. "Ruinous to our economy" is ridiculously overstating the cost by several orders of magnitude.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498603#Comment_121498603

Ok, overstating a little, but it would immediately curry criticism and pushback 'cos of the cost of first purchasing the equipment and then the maintenance and logistics required to keep it all going. A government would be rightly hauled over the coals for "wassting" money on a couple of Dassaults than spending it on, say, housing or childcare

Point being, you can't half-áss this, and "being able to protect our borders" is just an empty soundbite that quickly runs into reality the moment you try working the numbers. We're much better off with some kind of Joint Protection Treaty (well, not so much "joint" I suppose) than trying to drum up some anti-sub ships or somesuch - but that'd probably bristle with the "sovereignty" die-hards

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498667#Comment_121498667

I agree it would face massive criticism and there is no point half assing it.

Unfortunately this is the difficulty governments face in general. At the very least for our naval patrol work and the type of mission the rangers did recently we are chronically under funded/supplied.

duck.duck.go

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498667#Comment_121498667

Theres three options:

1. join NATO and spend up to 2% our GDP on defence
2. stay neutral and actually spend on defence what neutral similarly developed countries such as Switzerland and Austria do
3. Do nothing and continue to rely on Brits

Option 3 is just plain embarrassing by this stage as defence is a key competency of any state, I’m ok with either 1 or 2, there’s plenty big budget surpluses anyways to afford it.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498797#Comment_121498797

Fourth option: push and spearhead the EU Army idea; it has been floated enough and given all that has happened Ukraine - and may yet happen - could become more relevant than is comfortable. Wouldn't be surprised if Poland become the new vanguard of the proposal. It has been stealthily forwarded over the last decade or so through exercises IIRC and at from our POV would have much to offer. The safety net of our actual working neighbours' combined forces is more useful than relying on the charity of the now flaky British.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497319#Comment_121497319

Again, they are not “fighting for us”. They are looking after their own interests. If it wasn’t in their interests they’d leave the Russians to enter Irish airspace and waters and wouldn’t give a fook about us.

They aren’t doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, as some seem to believe.

duck.duck.go

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498957#Comment_121498957

That’s an interesting idea, I be ok with that too but I could also see how that would trigger Sinn Fein and their supporters and the loony conspiracy theory fringe on far left and far right

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498964#Comment_121498964

So we should be actually be doing for our own interests

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498999#Comment_121498999

What interests? What have we got that Russia wants?? What infrastructure do we own that the Russians might interfere with??

duck.duck.go

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499015#Comment_121499015

We have freedom and prosperity

Putin doesn’t like examples of successful countries that are not run by criminal mafia

It makes his serfs question why they are 10x poorer (despite living in larger country in world with most resources) than those Paddies over there who are not living in an oligarchic dystopia

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498339#Comment_121498339

Hey how’s it down at Orwell Road these days? Must be lonely.

By the way by Putin illegally invading a sovereign country and had he succeeded in taking the whole country he would have brought Russia closer to NATO.

Thankfully for him Ukraine fought back and saved Putins bacon.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498977#Comment_121498977

It has been floated for ages now and I think even had a few concerted efforts to create one - but always fell foul from Eurosceptic parties crying foul and scaremongering about conscription into an EU Army. IIRC there have been joint exercises taking place between national armed forces that have acted as a functional EU Army, with the plausible deniability if people asked too much.

If Ukraine falls to Russia then it has to come back on the table; it's unsavoury but the continent's defence - nevermind our coastline - being at the whim of 20+ armed forces and the bureaucracies to match, is insane. We'd need a single entity to control things.

Cards on the table I'm a real United States of Europe convert so admit federalisation would also require a "federal" armed force for security.

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499015#Comment_121499015

One word- Instability.

It’s what Russia do, like they have done in all the other countries they have invaded.

Look at what they are doing in Africa, Syria etc etc

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499015#Comment_121499015

Would you be happy for Russia to have free reign in our waters and airspace, and for us not to spend money defending them, purely because we have nothing to interest them ?

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498797#Comment_121498797

What is embarrassing about option 3? It gives us exactly the same outcome as option 2 while being far better for our economy. And it doesn't leave us at risk of being dragged into a war like option 1.

If you want the government to actually provide the best outcomes for the population rather than engage in some sort of militaristic willy waving for the sake of pride or something rather than any real benefit, then option 3 is by far the best choice.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498483#Comment_121498483

It is not relevant to the discussion how big British sea power is now, or not ( they only have 2 aircraft carriers, 10 submarines etc etc)....what we are talking about is how we do not even have just one ship in our little navy with sonar, so it knows what is underwater.

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497893#Comment_121497893

It appears you know little about US military power.

The US has a lot of interest in this country and that was why the Russians had disportionate amount of embassy staff in little old Ireland.

Ireland is very important to US from a commercial standpoint and anything that would threaten US economic interests means military can get involved.

A carrier group alone can carry out a huge amount of destruction and then you add in bases in UK/Germany/Spain.

And we are actually not that far off US coast when you consider B2s flew non stop missions to Serbia from Missouri in US.

duck.duck.go

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499129#Comment_121499129

What’s bad about having the guys who occupied us for 800 years (and still own a chunk of the island) defend us? Neither are they in EU anymore and it seems we are getting a string of ever more authoritarian prime ministers

Does one really need to answer that one??

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497983#Comment_121497983

Ok, where did you get your proof, and who do you think the US system is an different. US News media aren't credible sources

toucheswood

With the economy booming like never before, and none of it apparent in failing healthcare or housing or transport or education or infrastructure in general, it must all be going into defense. Right?

Actually, no, it looks like none of the money is there either!

One of these days we'll track down the point of this pesky economy, one of these days.

L.Ball

I think a russian sub lobbing a few nukes at the population centres would see a marked improvement tbh.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496182#Comment_121496182

Two claims were made - first, that the Brits are 'defending' us, and second that the Russians could invade at any time.

Now the first is plainly nonsense - the Brits treat us like we've still part of their empire, and the fact that our government acquiesces sort of encourages them in their views. I think most people with an interest in the matter were horrified to find out that our government has various 'understandings' with the UK (military overflight and the like), the US (informal use of Shannon as a base) etc on military matters that have never been explicitly approved by the Dáil.

On the second matter, just how would the Russians take us by surprise? Do you think they might dig a tunnel from Russia to Ireland to infiltrate us? Because any other method would not be a surprise - they would need either a flotilla full of soldiers and equipment or an enormous wave of aircraft filled with the same.

And in either case, it would be sort of obvious that something was up. Blocking the runways of our airports would stymie the air invasion (obviously not paratroopers) so the flotilla would be their better option, albeit less likely to go unnoticed. Even at that, huge waves of aircraft flying out of Murmansk, all the way around Norway and then across the North Sea and around Scotland would be hard to miss. And all of this by a state that is hard put to hold the land they seized in Ukraine and is unable to keep their Syrian safe from constant air attacks by Israel.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496807#Comment_121496807

Very true - but our 'allies', cumulatively, have carried out many many more invasions. Just consider how many countries Britain, the US, Germany, France, Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain, Portugal ... have invaded down the years. It's hair-raising if you consider it. In fact four of them have invaded Ireland in the past, so you could say they have form!!!😀😉

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498050#Comment_121498050

I've answered the bit about the contrails in another post: nobody in Europe is going to allow Russia to overfly them in order to invade Ireland - the sheer volume of planes required to carry the equipment and troops required is mind-boggling when all we would have to do is block the runways of our airports to keep them from landing.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499108#Comment_121499108

Everyone has free reign 12 miles out from our coasts, not just the Russians.

If we had a government that could negotiate the return of our waters from the EU we might have something worth defending out there.

I think one of the Brendan Ryans calculated twenty years ago that more fish had been taken out of our waters by our EU partners than had been invested in our infrastructure in the period from when we joined the EEC. That might be a better place to start rather than spending thousands of millions on importing big boys' toys from the USA.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499224#Comment_121499224

You're expecting the UK to invade? And make themselves complete international pariahs and have themselves booted out of NATO for no particular reason? What an utterly ridiculous notion. Given the opportunity they'd quite gladly offload Northern Ireland, there is absolutely no possible reason for them to ever consider invading. And lets imagine the utterly absurd scenario that they did. If we doubled, tripled, quadrupled our military spending, what would that achieve? There is no possible world where we would outspend the entire United Kingdom, particularly one that had turned so utterly insanely authoritarian and militaristic that is has completely lost its mind and started invading friendly neighbouring countries.

So increasing our military budget to prepare for this preposterous situation would achieve nothing other than more bloodshed on the way to the inevitable conclusion. The only possible end to this insanely unlikely hypothetical (ignoring the probability of the US and EU getting involved to put a stop to this rogue UK state before it got started) would be a British military victory, followed by a failed occupation and eventual political solution. The size of any Irish armed force at the beginning of the conflict would be pretty irrelevant.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499129#Comment_121499129

Option 3 does not give the same result as option 2.

Neutrality is a strictly defined term in international law and option 3 is utterly incompatible with it.

Neutral countries are strictly prohibited from entering into formal or informal arrangements where other countries will defend them (since such arrangements are basically defence alliances and hence incompatible with being neutral).

In addition, for us, choosing option 3 is effectively publicly declaring that we are to all intents and purposes basically a “devolved region” of the U.K. - like Wales only with a lot of pretence about being “independent”.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499034#Comment_121499034

Yeah, I’m sure they’re looking at our crumbling health, education, housing sectors and wondering how they can get that

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499087#Comment_121499087

I think you overestimate Ireland on the world stage. We’re a nothing country in the grand scheme of things.

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121510409#Comment_121510409

How was NATO encircling Russia, please explain?

Last I checked Ukraine isn’t in NATO, so by Putin stupidly invading Ukraine he would have pushed Russia closer to NATO borders in Poland for example.

Genius chess move there Vlad…

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499108#Comment_121499108

Defending what exactly?? Do you think they’re suddenly gonna invade? And as per the OP story, they were in international waters.

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121510413#Comment_121510413

What about Georgia? I’d go as far as saying they are a nothing country compared to Ireland on the world stage.

Still didn’t stop Russia and Putin invading Georgia..

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121510420#Comment_121510420

Yep, just coincidental…….

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121510486#Comment_121510486

Pan the map out and the obviousness of your misrepresentation becomes clear.

The encirclement was always a Russian propaganda lie. It was an obvious lie then and becomes all the more obvious now when they strip forces from NATO bordering territory to move to Ukraine.

This isn't even very good Russian propaganda, but I suppose that's the level they pitch at.

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121510486#Comment_121510486

What the **** sort of BS map is that?

Where’s the “encirclement”???

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121505598#Comment_121505598

I wonder why specialist Russian vessels have loitered over the sub-sea cable off Galway, and the Russian sub hover just outside Cork Harbour

Nothing at all to do with the fact "about three-quarters of all cables in the northern hemisphere pass through or near Irish waters, most off the southwest coast and some off the northwest coast. These cables carry 97% of global communications, including financial transactions, business operations, and everyday internet access.".

Like the drunk Uncle at the wedding, singing "ah sure it'll be grand", we're not the weakest link, certainly not.

TokTik

Got it.

Russia bad. US good.

Randycove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497307#Comment_121497307

These Russian bombers, that fly without their transponders on through commercial air lanes, are tracked from the minute they leave Russian airspace.

as they progress, each country they fly close to sends up jets and then hands over to the next airforce. The RAF pick them up north as they approach the north of Scotland, track them down to the channel where the French take over and then the Spanish. That’s usually where they turn around and head home, so the whole thing happens again in reverse.

the only country that doesn’t participate is Ireland, because Ireland does not have any military aircraft capable of flying that high and that fast.

it’s embarrassing.

Widdensushi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512314#Comment_121512314

You must be very self conscious if a small country like Ireland not sending planes on pointless journeys burning pointless fuel embarrasses you.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512314#Comment_121512314

I hope it doesn't keep you from sleeping at night.

Randycove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512327#Comment_121512327

It isn’t pointless though. These bombers are a danger to commercial traffic.

the Russians doing it is pointless, it is effectively just trolling, but not being able to track them as they fly through some of the busy commercial air lanes in the world is a real danger.

Widdensushi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512374#Comment_121512374

Do you think they are going to intentionally hit other planes, you do realise planes have other forms of navigation other than transponders.

Grassy Knoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512374#Comment_121512374

90% of North American- EU air traffic passes through our air space and we have Russian fairly regularly flying up and down our West Coast ‘off radar’. As has been mentioned they have separately been up to mischief off our coast. For a wealthy country this dereliction of our responsibility is not tenable IMHO

Randycove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512395#Comment_121512395

Oh, that’s alright then. Having wide bodied passenger aircraft with hundreds of passengers onboard playing dodgems with nuclear capable bombers is grand, because they won’t actual collide.

Widdensushi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512433#Comment_121512433

You are fairly dramatic,I am sure the Russians will stay out of the path of the others unless their intention is to ram them which would be a fairly stupid waste,we should have transponders on cars so it would be safe for you to drive.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512374#Comment_121512374

Hold on, you can’t say they’re tracked from the minute they leave Russian airspace in one post and then state that they cannot be tracked in another. Which is it?