Prime Time Gender Issues (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513019#Comment_121513019

Once more, why do you think my issue is around professional or elite level sports or indeed why my issue is around trans people "cleaning up" in sports?

I find it surprising that you believe a fear for womens safety and womens rights is something to be questioned with all that is going on in this thread.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513085#Comment_121513085

What safety?

Is thread about to do it's usual peak about trans people jumping out of cubicles to rape you?

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513161#Comment_121513161

You can't see any safety implications for:

1. Biological men competing in contact sports against women?
2. Biological men being imprisioned with women?

You can't see any "fairness" and "societal" issues for biological men competing in womens sports in general?

Did you ever wonder why there are mens and womens categories in sport? Did you every wonder why certain environments are secregated on a women/men basis?

These are all totally acceptable - but when you end up in positions where people are confused about what a woman is and what a man is, those become serious concerns.

If you go back through the thread you'll see where my concerns are. I'd wager that there are biological women all over the developed world with concerns.

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512933#Comment_121512933

What sports at professional or elite level are trans people cleaning up in?

EVERYONE should be entitled to fair competition in sport, not just professionals and elites. It is entirely irrelevant at what level someone competes if their participation is unfair to other competitors. So in this particular case, no male sex athletes should be allowed to compete in the female sex category in any sport that has female sex categories, irrespective of the level they are competing at.

Fairness should not be an elitist concept or entitlement.

Birneybau

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513597#Comment_121513597

The arrogance. A shot!

"Four teams reportedly withdrew from matches against Rossington Main Ladies after a shot by Francesca Needham injured an opposition player.

Needham said she was considering pursuing "a case of discrimination".

The FA says it is working with Sheffield & Hallamshire County FA.

Needham's shot reportedly led to an opposition player suffering a season-ending knee injury."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/67482965

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512829#Comment_121512829

Surely the clinicians when examining the patient for gender identity issues would be able to spot the co-morbidity.

Anyway I'm finding this whole line very suspicious. What I know is that it was revealed at Tavistock that a very high percentage (was it 30%) of patients had psychological co-morbidities. Now I hear it's well understood that "LGBT People" have always show this higher rate of co-morbidities - so nothing to see here, that neatly explains that one.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513597#Comment_121513597

Where is the evidence trans people are more dangerous than anyone else in society?

There is actual evidence that trans people are exponentially more likely to be a victim of crime.

Gatling

Teachers in the UK don't have to call pupil's by chosen pronouns in new guidelines issued,

I'd expect the Foley one to come out and tell us the Schools here the exact opposite

https://news.sky.com/story/schools-in-england-will-not-have-to-accept-all-requests-for-social-transition-under-new-transgender-guidance-13033940

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514017#Comment_121514017

But they do have to refer to them under their preferred name. I think it's an okay compromise. Though probably wouldn't be acceptable to Enoch Burke or people who share his views

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513995#Comment_121513995

I honestly don't know whether you are being intentionally obtuse or having a bad day.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514235#Comment_121514235

The guidance also states that schools and colleges do not have to, and should not, accept all requests for social transition...

Apparently they don't reading that

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514513#Comment_121514513

im confused- the sky news report you link to states that in "the absence of preferred pronouns the Childs preferred name should be used". Are you saying the sky report got it wrong?

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514538#Comment_121514538

It's saying that they don't have to accept requests for social transitions in schools,

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513890#Comment_121513890

There's a difference between people who would diagnose with autism or body dysphoria. They're different specialist areas. That's why it's hard to find someone who can diagnose a condition like ASD.

And even 20 years ago it would have been so hard to find someone. Now there's online directories. 20 years ago the internet was in it's infancy compared to now. There was also a lot less understanding of neuro diversity. the phrase neurodiverse wasn't even in use. Aspegers existed but there wasn't the umbrella term ASD.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514344#Comment_121514344

I asked you 2 very simple questions and you can't answer them.

You are determined to self fear monger.

It's beyond weird as is this whole obsession with trans people.

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514749#Comment_121514749

He asked you several simple questions and you can't answer them?

(These are the questions you are avoiding answering...

You can't see any "fairness" and "societal" issues for biological men competing in womens sports in general?

Did you ever wonder why there are mens and womens categories in sport? Did you every wonder why certain environments are secregated on a women/men basis?

)

You are determined to hold others to a higher standard than you are capable of adhering to yourself.

If you want to call your obsession weird then that is perfectly fine.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514793#Comment_121514793

Answering questions with questions. Zzzzzzzz.

You are determined to hold others to a higher standard than you are capable of adhering to yourself.

If you want to call your obsession weird then that is perfectly fine.

Adherence to reality should always be the starting point.

I know one trans person, they are grand. Getting on with life like every other person I know. Never jumped out of a bathroom cubicle to try and rape me anyway.

How many do you know?

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514834#Comment_121514834

And you still can't answer the questions, yet expect other people to adhere to a standard which you continue to demonstrate you are incapable of adhering to yourself.

Answering questions with questions. Zzzzzzzz.

And yet that's exactly what you did in post #662. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514853#Comment_121514853

I did answer your question.

You didn't answer mine.

Why not?

chopperbyrne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513995#Comment_121513995

Males are more dangerous than females.

The entirety of recorded human history show this.

Males perform at a higher level than females in physical activities. An Australian study showed that the gap in performance begins as early as nine years old.

Here are results of US high school boys vs 2016 Olympic finalist women in many sports.

https://boysvswomen.com/#/

Males commit over 90% of all violent crime, and sexual assaults. The majority of the victims of sexual assault are female.

Trans women are male, and there is nothing to suggest that male patterns change after transition of any kind.

So to protect females from both harm, and unfairness, you exclude males from certain spaces, and services.

Trans women are male, so they get excluded too. No special treatment. Equal treatment.

Any male who complains is a giant red flag.

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514861#Comment_121514861

I didn't ask you any questions. I pointed out your inability to engage to the standard you expect others to adhere to.

The questions you were asked by Kippy, that you still are unable to answer except with other questions are :

You can't see any "fairness" and "societal" issues for biological men competing in womens sports in general?

Did you ever wonder why there are mens and womens categories in sport? Did you every wonder why certain environments are secregated on a women/men basis?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514902#Comment_121514902

So absolutely no evidence that trans people are more dangerous than anyone else.

There are just two transgender inmates held in Irish prisons, or 0.04 per cent of the prison population.

So 2? Both held in segregation.

And knowing the story with one of them they will soon be off to the central mental hospital.

So this isn't really a problem at all is it?

In relation to sports where are all these trans champions dominating at any level?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514911#Comment_121514911

You did yeah.

He asked you several simple questions and you can't answer them?

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514931#Comment_121514931

The questions you were asked by Kippy, that you still are unable to answer except with other questions are :

You can't see any "fairness" and "societal" issues for biological men competing in womens sports in general?

Did you ever wonder why there are mens and womens categories in sport? Did you every wonder why certain environments are secregated on a women/men basis?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514935#Comment_121514935

Slow down and go back and read the posts.

Constantly copying and pasting things I have already addressed is not going to make me likely to engage with you.

If you have your own question, by all means ask.

You'll have to answer mine first.

chopperbyrne

I didn't say trans people are more dangerous than anyone else. I said transitioning doesn't change anything regarding how dangerous someone is.

Do you think female people don't deserve to set boundaries, and say no to males?

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514941#Comment_121514941

You're refusing to answer questions asked of you long before you asked me anything. Please adhere to the standards that you demand of other people.

One of my standards is that I don't "do" double standards. If you answer other's questions then I'll answer yours, no problem.

So please answer the questions that were asked of you back at 11:35 this morning.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514951#Comment_121514951

I didn't say trans people are more dangerous than anyone else. I said transitioning doesn't change anything regarding how dangerous someone is.

Great, could you show citation for that claim?

There are just two transgender inmates held in Irish prisons, or 0.04 per cent of the prison population.

Would that stat not suggest they are less dangerous, or at the very least less likely to be involved in criminality?

chopperbyrne

Do you think female people don't deserve to set boundaries, and say no to males?

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515000#Comment_121515000

So you're an elitist then. You don't think that anyone below elite level in sports matters when it comes to fairness. As long as someone entering a category they are not eligible for does not "dominate" that category you don't care. As long as the elites are not affected you don't care how many non-elite athletes are affected.

I'm going to guess you have very little interest in sports. You certainly show no understanding of one of the fundamental principles of sports competition. (Fairness, in case you can't work it out).

I have no fear of trans people, just in case you're trying to imply I do.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515019#Comment_121515019

I imagine the vast majority of "female people" are not obsessing over trans people.

In fact the vast majority that are seem to be middle aged permanently contrary men who suddenly when it suits takes an interest in prisoners rights or women's sports.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515046#Comment_121515046

You're a big fan of women's sports are you?

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515078#Comment_121515078

I'll answer that question for you. Yes.

You, clearly, are not. You have demonstrated that you do not care how many non-elite female athletes are disadvantaged by having to compete against male sex athletes entering the female category. As long as the elites are not affected you don't care. It's either an elitist or a misogynistic attitude. So which of those 2 are you?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515101#Comment_121515101

If the problem existed to the extent being portrayed elite female sports would be dominated by trans athletes.

So far we have one trans athlete winning one race in America some where.

Still don't see how this is one of the most pressing issues of your time.

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515112#Comment_121515112

So you're an elitist then. But feel free to correct me if you're actually more of a misogynist. You don't care how disadvantaged the vast majority of female athletes are by having to compete against male sex athletes as long as the elites are not affected. And even when the elites are affected you don't care as long as it is not a sufficiently large number to whatever your "standards" are for the number of affected elite female athletes.

Do you have any interest in sport?

Do you think all female athletes should be entitled to the same level of fairness in competition?

If you don't think this is a pressing issue then why are you demonstrating your obsession by posting continuously in this thread?

Are you going to argue that your posting is not obsessive, but that anyone who disagrees with you is?

FutureGuy

Allowing trans woman to compete in contact sports against non-trans women is absolutely ridiculous. It's common sense ffs.

MichaelMedik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512924#Comment_121512924

"no-one gets reassignment surgery before they're 18" ?!

This simply is not true, there are many cases.

Just one well-known case for example : Ex-Mermaids CEO Susie Green's child had reassignment surgery on their 16th birthday, including the removal of their male sexual organs.

Susie Green personally referred children to the U.K.'s Tavistock Clinic - subsequently ordered to shut by the NHS - when their own doctors wouldn't do so.

It's all openly documented in the Sunday Telegraph and Sunday Times' investigations, upheld by the U.K. independent press complaints commission.

The RTE Prime Time episode concerns HSE referrals to Tavistock and Professors O'Shea and Moran's concerns about this.

nachouser

Some numbers for context. So, a tiny proportion of the population.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515154#Comment_121515154

You don't care how disadvantaged the vast majority of female athletes

I can't care about something that is a figment of your imagination.

I have asked for evidence and figures none are forthcoming.

This is actually one of the more hilarious and irrational self fear mongering folly that exists at this moment.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496824#Comment_121496824

By “people who have received surgical intervention too soon”, did the programme include any mention of a recent Supreme Court decision in Japan which ruled mandatory sterilisation as a requirement for legal gender recognition unconstitutional?

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/25/victory-transgender-rights-japan

The decision follows European countries being forced to pay compensation to victims of mandatory sterilisation policies which were previously a requirement for treatment and/or legal recognition -

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1YZ0YE/

States in the US are still somewhat behind the curve -

https://www.thedailybeast.com/its-not-just-japan-many-us-states-require-transgender-people-get-sterilized

If you were looking to understand why the exponential rise in the numbers of patients seeking treatment for gender incongruence which is so debilitating to the degree that they require medical and surgical intervention, taking the mandatory unnecessary surgical intervention off the table could provide one explanation as to why they’re not having to reconsider whether seeking treatment is guaranteed to lead to worse outcomes for themselves.

It’s a tough one, because already medical professionals in the US and Europe are playing catch-up given the wide availability of hormone treatments for those who can afford them, that they’re not having to rely on organisations like Planned Parenthood to provide the treatments on prescription -

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1247920

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515302#Comment_121515302

Everyone can read this thread, see your post, and see clearly that you don not care whether non-elite athletes are affected or not. Right from post #665 on when you made it clear that elite level was all that mattered with the following (directly quoting you)

What sports at professional or elite level are trans people cleaning up in?

That's no figment of my imagination. That's your post. And you have continued with that line of argument, and indeed doubled down on your misogyny/elitism by saying that as long as sufficient large numbers of elites by whatever your "standards" are, are not affected then you don't care.

I see you're still incapable of answering any questions yourself. It really does show how threadbare your points are.

Do you have any interest in sport?

Do you think all female athletes should be entitled to the same level of fairness in competition?

If you don't think this is a pressing issue then why are you demonstrating your obsession by posting continuously in this thread?

Are you going to argue that your posting is not obsessive, but that anyone who disagrees with you is?

victor8600

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515223#Comment_121515223

Exactly, it is a tiny proportion. Most people have never met a trans person, let alone taken time to talk with them, yet online everyone is an expert in how trans care needs to be delivered and how the "trans movement" corrupts defenseless babies. There are WHO recommendations, let's follow them and leave it at that.

To those (voltchica, looking at you) who say that "gays don't need care, but trans do, so we have the right to say how trans care is delivered", I can only say that we have the society and the civilization precisely to care for all members of society. Leaving aside that there is some gay-specific care (Gay Men's Health Service in HSE) actually.

If there is no (trans, gay, autism, maternity, whatever) care provided by the state, people with agendas will pick up the slack. Do you want the state to be in control of care, or do you want people to seek substandard help from quack doctors, or following advice from internet propagandists, with the state then having to deal with consequences from botched operations and the psychological damage later anyway?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515353#Comment_121515353

Once more.

If this problem is as acute as you claim then elite sport would be littered with trans athletes.

You can't even tell me how many trans athletes compete at non elite level.

Have you any evidence at all to support your self fear mongering?

You are manufacturing outrage for the sake of it.

So the only pertinent question, is why?

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515365#Comment_121515365

And yet again you demonstrate your elitism and misogyny, whilst at the same time refusing to answer questions.

ALL female athletes are entitled to equal fair competition, not just elites. Do you disagree with this?

Whether trans athletes happen to compete at elite level or not is entirely irrelevant. If it is unfair for a transwoman to compete in the female sex category then it is unfair to all athletes in the female sex category, whatever level they compete at.

If it is unfair for a male sex athlete to compete in the female sex category in sports then 1 is 1 too many. The total number is irrelevant. You can't even tell me how many trans athletes compete at any level, elite or non-elite.

You clearly have no understanding of sports. You clearly have no understanding of fairness. You're clearly an elitist who only cares whether elite-level athletes are affected or not. It's shocking misogyny.

Please quote any post where I am fear-mongering, and if you can't then it would be good manners to withdraw that accusation. I have no fear of trans people. I certainly have no fear of your elitist misogyny, and am happy to call it out.

If you think endeavouring to ensure fairness in sport is "manufacturing outrage" then that certainly says a lot about you.

What is it you fear about fairness in sport? Why do you have this fear?

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514749#Comment_121514749

The danger stems from biological men competing against biological females, but of course you know this.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514834#Comment_121514834

Adherence to reality should always be the starting point.

Indeed it should. If only you would start from this same point in all your arguments regarding transgenderism.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515000#Comment_121515000

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/trans-athlete-sparks-outrage-toppling-womens-powerlifting-world-record-completely-unfair

Her total weight lifted in squat, bench and deadlift resulted in a final score of 597.5 kilograms, which was over 200 kilograms more than her closest opponent, SuJan Gill, who finished at 387.5 kilograms. 

But its all just scaremongering right? Its totally normal for 40 year old competitors to lift 50% more than the rest of the field.

I have seen arguments on this thread encouraging me and others to go out and engage with transgender people so as to learn what their life is life etc; I personally said I didn’t know anybody transgender, at least not for certain, and it was more or less put that there’s lots of such people. Then comes the counter argument that they are a fraction of society, so small that many people wouldn’t know a transgender person or at least be aware they were transgender; the majority of us treat every decent person we encounter with respect and don’t concern ourselves with their gender status or sexuaL preference etc.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515505#Comment_121515505

A huge amount of this thread has been very very far from respectful towards trans people

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513890#Comment_121513890

Tbh I’d recommend taking correlations like that with a grain of salt, for that’s all they’re really worth. Correlations like that are always drawn between groups that come under closer examination in the social sciences. A far less well-known one is the prevalence of autism among atheists for example -

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10453845/

That 30% stat is an exaggeration intended to suggest that people who experience gender incongruity, it’s not because they’re transgender, but because they’re autistic, or they’re actually homosexual, or they’re anything but transgender. The situation isn’t helped by people like Simon Baron Cohen and Christopher Gillberg looking to promote their own ideas either:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Baron-Cohen

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Gillberg