Prime Time Gender Issues (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496865#Comment_121496865

In olden days people with those type of opinions were affectionately referred to as fruitloops and ignored when the adults in the room discussed things.

Nowadays they are the ones setting the discourse, paid for the privilege and actual scientist, doctors are meant to listen to them.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499771#Comment_121499771

So when you said "That might be the case in theory, but in practice maybe not so much" in response to my point about care being provided by doctors, you were still talking about doctors? Why the 'no so much'? They're still doctors.

It's hard to get the context of the piece you quoted, or indeed the relevance without seeing the full piece. But I'm not sure I'm getting your point - the Minister mentioned an online service (once again, just for the absence of any doubt, provided by doctors) as an alternative. Why do you mention this to counter my point about services being provided by doctors?

The phrase you quoted from the Trinity research is a segment reporting on the views of research participants. That's the position quoted by some research participant(s). It's not the opinion of the paper authors. Taking one sentence out of context from a 100+ page research report doesn't make a huge amount of sense.

And why do you describe this paper as 'The research that fed into the conversion therapy ban bill'? What's the connection between the research and the bill?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499656#Comment_121499656

Puberty stoppers seem to be a safe interim whilst the young mind transitions to adulthood. Re denial of medical care, it’s already denied to so many In account of our inadequate health services, and I speak from direct experience. Mental Health services are even more grossly inadequate on every count.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499413#Comment_121499413

They didn't read out TENIs full statement so yes it was very much unbalanced

https://teni.ie/teni-statement-to-rte-prime-time/

Re appendicectomy, it is an acute abdominal random emergency which has a high rate of being quickly lethal if not operated. It is as daft a medical comparison as any I’ve heard.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499791#Comment_121499791

How did referring to people as fruitloops work out for trans people?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499786#Comment_121499786

It's always fascinating to see the intense interest of some Irish people in the minute detail of goings-on in this sector in the UK and around the world. No speck of dirt is too small to be sniffed, magnified, reported out of context, and repeated to stir up uncertainty and doubt.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499797#Comment_121499797

So when you said "That might be the case in theory, but in practice maybe not so much" in response to my point about care being provided by doctors, you were still talking about doctors? Why the 'no so much'? They're still doctors.

It's hard to get the context of the piece you quoted, or indeed the relevance without seeing the full piece. But I'm not sure I'm getting your point - the Minister mentioned an online service (once again, just for the absence of any doubt, provided by doctors) as an alternative. Why do you mention this to counter my point about services being provided by doctors?

Do I really have to explain this? A "service" that involves no meaningful consultation, even if provided by a doctor is entirely inadequate in meeting the needs of gender dysphoric teenagers.

It's really the crux of the dispute between the NGS doctors and organisations like TENI (supported by the HSE). TENI regards people like these doctors as "gate keepers" preventing kids from getting access to the medication they want which is presumably why they encourage people to use these online services.

So, where do you stand on that point? Do you think gender dysphoric teenagers should be given whatever they want (by a GP who just signs a prescription), or should they be assessed more rigorously first?

The phrase you quoted from the Trinity research is a segment reporting on the views of research participants. That's the position quoted by some research participant(s). It's not the opinion of the paper authors. Taking one sentence out of context from a 100+ page research report doesn't make a huge amount of sense.

And why do you describe this paper as 'The research that fed into the conversion therapy ban bill'? What's the connection between the research and the bill?

Because the research was published by the government department that is drafting the bill. It's in the article I linked.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496865#Comment_121496865

The point that they're making, I think, is - in very simple terms - that being trans is not being sick, or ill or a medical condition. It's just part of who they are. This pathologising of trans status is similar indeed to what happened to gay people within living memory.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499900#Comment_121499900

The logical response to it not being a medical issue would mean that therefore medical treatment is not appropriate for a non medical issue. So which is it? A medical issue that needs to be addressed medically? A psychological issue that needs to be addressed by a therapist? Or social issue that needs to be affirmed by society without recourse to any medically induced changes?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499888#Comment_121499888

Where did you get 'no meaningful consultation' from?

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499900#Comment_121499900

Great, so it's not an illness, no medical care or treatment is required! Simples.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499929#Comment_121499929

Except that nice neat logic doesn't work. The support needed by trans people typically involves some combination of therapy, hormones, surgery - which are medical treatments. It may not fit into your nice neat box, but that's the reality of the support that trans people need.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499965#Comment_121499965

Well, eh, no.

Why should relevant healthcare be withheld from people just because you find it a bit icky?

cgcsb

In the early 2000s I seem to remember just about every teenage female was 'bisexual' of course the actual incidence of bisexuality remained below 5% but there were an avalanche of 'lesbian' kisses in popular music videos and there was still MTV at the time so of course that was just a fad, a completely harmless one of course. I do wonder is there an element of transgenderism being a fad, in the sense that many teens presenting as trans may not actually be so and may be prescribed harmful medication.

Also does anyone remember goths\skaters\emos etc. Teens don't seem to have those tribes anymore, they all wear completely identical north face jackets and the outsiders are all 'they/thems'

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500017#Comment_121500017

People who are not sick don't need healthcare!

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500139#Comment_121500139

Trans people are not sick, and absolutely need some or all of therapy, hormones and surgery.

This isn't some debating game, this is real life people.

There's only two conclusions of your position that I can see;

1) No trans person should get therapy, hormones or surgery.

2) Trans people have to admit that this fundamental aspect of their nature constitutes being 'sick' solely because you've decided to place this barrier to treatment in front of them.

Which option are you proposing?

What benefit arises from labelling people as 'sick'?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500017#Comment_121500017

Ive had tons of icky stoma related healthcare because i was seriously ill, I am attending a clinic because of MS. If I didn’t have an illness I wouldn’t need highly specialised healthcare. Doctors don’t treat social issues other than as they give rise to medical issues.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500171#Comment_121500171

Did you just decide this arbitrary rule or label? I'll ask you the same question as Mrs O'B

There's only two conclusions of your position that I can see;

1) No trans person should get therapy, hormones or surgery.

2) Trans people have to admit that this fundamental aspect of their nature constitutes being 'sick' solely because you've decided to place this barrier to treatment in front of them.

Which option are you proposing?

What benefit arises from labelling people as 'sick'?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499777#Comment_121499777

I think from my reading of Mrs O’Bumble’s post she’s suggesting The middle course, the listening ear.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500204#Comment_121500204

Well you are labelling transgender people as “in need of treatment” when some such people might be living perfectly content lives, no?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500210#Comment_121500210

So withholding of hormonal and surgical supports, to browbeat people into giving up and admitting that this fundamental aspect of their personality makes them 'sick'?

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499656#Comment_121499656

I said that it is very obvious to me that many of the teenage girls who say they are boys are not in fact trans.

Most Will grow out of it.

You'd have to be stupid to believe everything teenagers say.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500204#Comment_121500204

Of course anybody who feels being Transgender is problematic to them should get therapy, that’s logical. But such children should not be “told”’they have a problem unless it becomes a problem. Are you suggesting transgenderism is always a problem that needs treating? That’s like the way some people used to think of homosexuality.

endacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499832#Comment_121499832

‘Triggering’. FFS

clown

victor8600

It is almost funny to see transphobes sharing opinions and liking each other's posts on what they do not understand. Being trans is what you are born with, it is not a fad or a phase.

Thankfully, it is no longer socially acceptable to tell a lesbian to find a man or for gays to be locked up for deviancy. But, for some strange reason, trans issues attract too much attention from overly opinionated freaks.

take everything

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500158#Comment_121500158

Honestly, this is Alice in Wonderland stuff.

You talked about the experience of gay people. Gay people don't need to seek medical care about their condition.

Trans people do. Someone who sees a doctor has a pathology (in the only sense of the word "pathology" that I know of). So yeah, pathology is involved.

Reconciling their psychology with their biology (as much as they can) is what that treatment is. This is something that has to involve the medical model.

Or are you suggesting no medical intervention because there is nothing to intervene for. 🤔

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499969#Comment_121499969

I don’t do boxes… I never put people into boxes, but far too many put children into neat boxes with neat labels when they don’t conform with current societal ideals . Always happened, always will. It’s adults that are always the problem, not the children.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499194#Comment_121499194

Okay thanks (and @[Deleted User]) I'll have a look at those. Though I have to say I think I might find it hard going as after having a cursory look at them and since I specifically asked about the link between autism and homosexuality which I've never heard of till you mentioned it, those articles keep conflating LGBT, LGBT+, and LGBTQ, etc, which of course are completely different things.

To bring this back on topic the doctor on Prime Time said iirc* 10 years ago patients presenting in Ireland with gender identity issues didn't have anywhere near the amount of comorbidities such as autism as they do today, so you'd have to wonder why that is, which of course is one of the reasons 'affirmative care' is so contentious, i.e. are those patients on the right path at all.

*I was going to confirm that via the RTE player but looks like the episode has been pulled. Wonder what's going on there.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500204#Comment_121500204

Why does anyone need treatment for any fundamental aspect of their being?

Surely we should just accept everyone for who they are, without applying "treatments" to them to make them better conform to society's expectations?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500204#Comment_121500204

Which arbitrary rule per se?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500292#Comment_121500292

There is no 'applying treatments to them to make them better conform'. There IS providing access to treatments that people desperately want and need to help them to reconcile their physical body with this fundamental aspect of their being.

Why would you want to block access to such treatments?

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500259#Comment_121500259

if you are actually trans i agree, plenty of teenagers might think they are and then realise they arent, sexuality is one thing, people can try things out see what they like and then decide, medical interventions to change your gender is not quite the same.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500222#Comment_121500222

I would think hormonal supports are mostly fine if they don’t have major long-term risks, as I indicated in an earlier post. Surgical alterations are for life. No surgeon can be forced to perform risky surgery on a child where they don’t see there is a medical need to be met. When a person is in adulthood and of sound mind I would fully support a person’s decision to do this.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500312#Comment_121500312

Some people who lose their hair are content with appearance, others are not. Some are quite distressed by new lack of hair and want to go beyond a wig or hairpiece. Should hair transplants be funded publicly to alleviate such mental distress?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499764#Comment_121499764

This discussion isn't about animals though so that's just pointless

When I was a child I was persistently labelled a “Tomboy” because of the pursuits and interests I enjoyed. I didn’t always quite like the label because it meant I was being described differently to other children. As I said before it’s mostly adults doing the labelling of children.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500367#Comment_121500367

Have you tried actually listening to trans children about their experiences?

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500259#Comment_121500259

But in a lot of case it's exactly that a fad of phase some people go through and tied into mental health disorders

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500341#Comment_121500341

Why do you keep changing the subject when asked a direct question?

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500259#Comment_121500259

I don't think anyone doubts that trans people are born that way, rather the question mark is over whether 100% of under 18s being offered potentially harmful hormone treatments are indeed trans. It's a perfectly legitimate question to ask and I don't think that you can say with any certainty that there's definitely 0% chance of there being some element of 'fad' at play.

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500312#Comment_121500312

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been blocked, no pun intended, to be honest but there is a very good reason why O'Shea, Moran and Ni Dhaliagh said what they said last night and it wasn't to deprive or hurt their patients. It's the same reason why the Cass Review was commissioned (and made it's recommendations in the interim report) and it's the same reasons why any country that has done a systematic review of blockers and the WPATH guidelines have made their decisions to move much more cautiously than the guidelines.

This is a complex area and some of the guidelines are simplistic. Remember the lady on promoting affirming care did use an appendectomy as an example which is in no way comparable to the surgeries involved in affirming care.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500409#Comment_121500409

I don’t know if I’ve met any tbh. I’m 62, no child thus far has told me they are trans, but I’ve seen some American & British documentaries. I‘m not quite sure where I’d meet trans children to have such a discussion and if I did question children I might stand to be accused of grooming so I wouldn’t risk posing any such question to a girl with a boyish haircut or a boy with long hair and a pink top.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500259#Comment_121500259

Performing radical irreversible appearance-changing surgery on a child is where most people have an issue. Homosexuality never required any such thing, and it was government entities that proscribed it as illegal, not ordinary folk.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500247#Comment_121500247

Look boomer. Just because us younger generation are more in touch with who we are, and are better people than you, you shouldn't judge us for it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500266#Comment_121500266

It’s a bit like the case of Schrodiger’s Cat methinks, it is and it isn’t all at the same time.

BruteStock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500259#Comment_121500259

It was a fad or a phase for the young girl on prime time. The same for Richie who is left having no genitals. All the individuals who identify as trans and grow into gay or lesibians - it was a fad and/or phase for them. The 100's of documented detranisitioners , a fad and phase they regret. Post op suicides victims. Its an objective fact that being trans is a fad or a phase for a lot of people. And there is nothing wrong with acknowledging it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500435#Comment_121500435

What question did you ask, I will happily answer.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500277#Comment_121500277

I think the link with homosexuality may exist in familial cases but not in more random cases.

Montage of Feck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498296#Comment_121498296

I didn't say we should deny the existence of trans people, just listen to the actual medical experts, cold logic over emotions, before making drastic life altering decisions.

Let me be very very clear, I do believe trans children, if they express distress about their situation, should get a listening ear, counselling & hormone therapy if that’s appropriate. However I would regard major surgery as an act of abuse on a child. When the child grows into a reasonably otherwise well-adjusted adult and if they see surgery as their best option, then I would be for them going for it. Not sure in my own mind yet if the taxpayer should fully fund it.