EV Depreciation

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558439#Comment_121558439

Eh...no. Born standard spec is noticeably better than the ID3.

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559359#Comment_121559359

Not saying they're dodgy or anything, but I rang them re a couple of ads when I was buying a Born for my wife mid 2023, and what was actually available didn't seem to tally with what was advertised - plus, because they're pre reg (AKA officially second hand) they were only offered at a high finance rate meaning it was considerably cheaper per month to buy a 'more expensive' brand new Born elsewhere.

sk8board

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559359#Comment_121559359

“Huge spec” - but we’re not going to tell you any of it 🙄

Buck Melanoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559889#Comment_121559889

Also NCT is March 2026 on a 2023 reg car??

Cormacca87

Finding this thread very interesting. I've been thinking about going the EV route for some time and to my mind, a Cupra Born makes sense. I'm in a 2017 Mazda 3 petrol at the moment and apart from occasional trips to Dublin/Galway, my driving is mainly around the city (Limerick).

Looks like now is becoming a good time to make the change, financially.

Ev fan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560004#Comment_121560004

For what it's worth I bought an ID3 in 2021(original car was an egolf) after 2 years I was looking to see was there anything nicer/more plush than the ID3. For me the ID3 is a very good car with plain looks and with a Lidl interior- jarring when it comes with a premium price. I didn"t want anything bigger so I had a look at the Born which is made on the same production line in VW Zuickau. IMO the Born is significantly better looking (striking with the high cheekbones/angles etc.) Inside it looks a lot better furnished and finished, Bigger more colourful infotainment screen with controls a little easier to use- sports seats/nicer steering wheel and probably marginally better handling. Functionally battery/drive train/ the same and has the same robust build quality and parts. I think Neil Briscoe (ITimes) called it an optimised ID3. I got mine in February 2023 and haven't looked back since. Don't be fooled it's not a sports car and the other thing to be careful on may be not to get the largest wheels if you want to optimise comfort.

Casati

What’s the rear room like for feet in the Born? I have found the ID3 uncomfortable in the back as feet are swashed under the front seats - so can’t stretch legs out - might be different if you have petit feet and wear pumps but alas I don’t’

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560922#Comment_121560922

ID.3 and Cupra Born are the exact same car, no?

Casati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560986#Comment_121560986

Same platform but different packaging, quite a bit more than different badging

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561016#Comment_121561016

Rear leg room should be the same. That’s unkels point I think.

gammon199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560004#Comment_121560004

Not a good time now

Especially for used stuff, a lot of them will be reaching the 100k km warranty ending threshold soon and they will be treated like nuclear waste by the general public, nobody is gonna want out of warranty EV's, will be some bargains then.

You could do a poll here and 99%+ will have an EV that's still under warranty and you can bet any money that they will be getting a new EV before that warranty is up. They will be the same posters that will tell you EV's are more reliable than the sun rising every morning but they won't risk it themselves.

Look at these poor sods, rolled over some debris on the road and both facing 60k new battery bill for damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEXieo06ta8&t=186s

Or this with guy his Nissan EnV200, battery just failed and is out of warranty

The industry for fixing EV's cheaply just isn't there and depreciation will be brutal because of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w4OW0vAdK0&t=375s

A lot of price drops to come for new stuff too.

We haven't see any real desperation yet from auto giants, give it a year or 2 when they start lobbying the EU for more incentive money and beg EU to increase fossil fuel cost to make EV's more attractive.

A

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561046#Comment_121561046

Start your poll then maybe?

I have 3 EVs, none of them under general warranty. The Tesla has a bit over a year of battery warranty left, but I will keep the car after that expires.

You seem to have joined boards a few weeks ago, just to spread some EV FUD?

ELM327

I have 3 EVs, two of them are under warranty and one isnt. However the tales of battery mass failure are not happening and I am not concerned. Indeed, I'd be more concerned owning an out of warranty 2016-2020 diesel than a 2016-2020 EV

gammon199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561091#Comment_121561091

I will

They are under battery and drivetrain warranty then? What are they?

What am I saying that's FUD? Ev's are depreciating by a lot, this is the EV depreciation thread and they lack specialists to repair them cheaply which contributes to depreciation.

gammon199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561102#Comment_121561102

Yourself and Unkel are not general publics, ye are geeks, enthusiasts.

Are you not concerned because its a cheap old Leaf or something? What is the one out of warranty

I'm pretty sure its not a 30k Tesla or VW

I'm guessing a 3k Leaf or something worth nothing

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561191#Comment_121561191

Yeah it's an old leaf. But the current Tesla replaced an out of warranty Tesla, that I wasnt concerned about either. It's simply not the issue you are making it out to be. If it were, older EVs would be worthless. Even out of warranty Teslas are still holding value at or above 20k even though they are now 10 years old. What 520d or e class are worth 20k at 10 years old?

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561102#Comment_121561102

I think you are missing the point, as someone who owns and has driven older EVs it's not you that needs convincing - it's people who have yet to buy one.

The following need to happen I think for there to be enough confidence to blow the scare stories away.

Used EVs should have a standard method for determining their deterioration and their health. This should be available in report format and be easily accessible through the infotainment system.

Battery warranty or insurance needs to be a product that anyone can buy and renew. I want to sell my old EV? "I have 9 months battery insurance and an NCT too" is the kind of thing I'd like to start seeing in ads.

Lastly, the cost of battery replacement and repair work needs to be more affordable. The modularisation of batteries has helped but not fixed it.

I've a feeling that the car industry is looking at the mobile phone one and will try to emulate it: That the expectation is that all car owners hold a new car for a few years before replacing with new again and there is no secondary market to speak of. Cars will get cheaper but harder to repair with the emergence of mega and giga casting, leading to a more throw away culture.

handpref

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561046#Comment_121561046

If you asked Ian Sampson featured above would he buy another env200 he probably would, he has two, and a Zoe, and we all know the limitations of the early 24kwh leaf battery.

Ian is an original early adopter with his rural leaf, so the “guy” featured above is one of biggest ev supporters around, the small sound bite provided has not been given any context, just a shock headline.

gammon199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561203#Comment_121561203

Exactly what I was thinking an old Leaf or something

Model S is more like a 740d or S Class?

Wouldn't compare one too a 2.0l diesel, but they are worthless, if the battery or drivetrain goes it wouldn't be economical to fix it.

An 85kWh Tesla battery costs over €15,000, plus shipping, labour etc, it's over 20k alone and its not even new and can die anytime and don't be giving me this ohh, you can just replace a single module, that's only €1,000. Nobody does those jobs cheaply in Ireland

If the battery or high performance electric motor dies, that car is going for scrap and yes you will get a good amount if you take it apart.

Most of those cars have 15-20 modules that are worth about €500 each and the motors in them worth another few k, but most people wont break down the car bit by bit

I could get a €500 Yaris and €4000 off it, if I broke the whole car up and shipped parts to Saudi

unkel

@gammon199 - "Model S is more like a 740d or S Class?"

It is in size, comfort, style and luxury. In total cost of ownership, it's more like a 520d 😂

Show me where you can buy a Tesla battery module for €500, I might buy a few...

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561256#Comment_121561256

Model S is not a 7 series or S class. Not at all. Have you sat in a 7er or an S? It's a Sonderklasse for a reason. The Tesla is not a premium executive car. It's a 5 series segment, not a 7. Full size sedan yes but executive/premium, no!

Have you seen used S prices. There's a reason they never go below 15-20k. Even crashed ones. The battery in them has such value that you can buy a crashed car for 15k, sell the battery, and make your money back, then part out the rest for profit.

If only the motor goes (and bear in mind the first cars had 8 years and unlimited mile warranty) then it's not expensive to fix, a couple of k probably. It's certainly not scrap. If the battery goes, that would likely scrap the car. However. Batteries never go on these cars thanks to the BMS. What does happen is one module goes and as you rightly mentioned that's only a few hundred quid per module. There's already companies in the UK and US doing module replacements so its only a matter of time before they come here.

I'd prefer a 20k out of warranty tesla to a 20k out of warranty bimmer/mercedes/audi etc, be that a 5 or 7 series.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561046#Comment_121561046

What EV has only a 100k km warranty?

drunkmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561203#Comment_121561203

530d is holding value and it was a good bit cheaper than a Model S new. You'd need to work out the fuel savings between the two but there might not be a lot in it. Diesel could have been the better long term choice.

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/530d-m-sport/35959351

I've a phev and starting to get cold feet as with my milage I'm about 12mts away from using up my warranty. Friends in the trade are telling me some garages refusing to take an EV trade in, I think my phev will be fine but I'd rather change now than before it hits 100k.

Really hard to know what to change to, if it was a full EV again, new model 3 is probably the only one I'd consider after seeing how well some of my friends got on with them and big milage.

It's definitely a confusing landscape for anyone thinking of changing right now. I'd feel safer going something rare in a petrol or diesel. Bik is playing into it as well though.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561387#Comment_121561387

That f10 is a lot more expensive than the 520d which I mentioned.

Tesla is a good way to go but not if you're planning on changing quickly - the prices are very unstable. If there were no Teslas I'd probably go something German and premium. If there had been no Tesla there probably would be no EV options so I'd probably import an f10 M550d.

drunkmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561430#Comment_121561430

Weren't you comparing it to the cost of a 2012 model s though? 550d was 67k sterling new and the model s was 98k. there both worth around the same now the diesel even more. That's a big depreciation difference.

Your right the new prices are very unsatable and so high I don't think they're sustainable. The new i5 is a perfect example. 20k difference between the entry i5 and a 520i. I can see a lot of 520d/530d owners holding onto theirs and the deprecation to slow on them. It's a bit mad BMW would stop selling the diesel saloons.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561387#Comment_121561387

My long term average on the 530d was mid 20's. Typical Dublin driving. My remapped 535d was 26.6. A little better than the 530d.

drunkmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561552#Comment_121561552

I've had 2, mine was around 40ish mainly backroads and motorway. Amazing they've been discountinued. Will Mercedes eat into BMW's market now?

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561550#Comment_121561550

There was no 2012 RHD S. The first S sold in the UK was 2014, and none were sold new here till 2017. I was comparing to a 2014 S as most early Teslas here were UK nearly new imports - like my S was - as you couldnt buy new here.

The i5, as an aside, is a lovely car but at least 20-30k overpriced for the segment. I wanted the i5 m60 and even went for a testdrive and to the launch event but it was over 136k in the spec I wanted. I can't imagine many current 1-3 year old 5 series owners will want to switch to a 90-136k EV when the incoming G60 550e is cheaper.

As a second aside, there will be diesel saloons coming, as well as diesel tourings, just not at launch. Heard on the QT.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121556311#Comment_121556311

The price was something like 40k for a car over 2 years old - must drop by that thread as hadn’t heard they were problematic.

drunkmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561587#Comment_121561587

Yea the i5 is mad money, I'd say the depreciation will be similar. That 550e is super expensive as well, is it really worth the extra 20k over the 530e, hadn't noticed the battery range has jumped up to nearly 100km, it might be a contender. if a 530ed existed i'd defintely be intrested, low bik and vat back on the diesel.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561550#Comment_121561550

98k sterling? What on earth makes you think that? The top of the range Performance model was £68,900

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/model-s/84927/tesla-model-s-2014-review#:~:text=Still%2C%20it%20rides%20very%20well,Charging%20is%20still%20a%20problem.

Base Model S with smaller battery was much cheaper again.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561578#Comment_121561578

The G30 530d is a great car but you have to be driving motorway to get the mpg from them. If you’re in any way a city driver, you won’t get near the quoted MPG figures or be efficient in any way.

Cyrus

Some of the stuff I’m reading in here is barmy, you’d swear out of warranty BMWs were sure things in terms of reliability and then you have a load of scare mongering about how Evs over 100k km will be worthless

mental

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561992#Comment_121561992

If only BMWs were covered for all engine and drivetrain issues for the first 8 years with unlimited mileage 😂

John arse

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561601#Comment_121561601

Well my experience with the ioniq 5 is that it's the dogs nuts,i’d actually buy another one!

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561890#Comment_121561890

It's not just a G30 thing either, even my e60 and e61 535d both had the same trait. Possible to see near 40mpg on a long motorway run but around short trips or town driving you'd do well to see 25mpg

This is where there would actually be a good case for a 550De in the g60. 75km EV real world range for the local trips and efficient diesel for the longer motorway driving (and claim back the vat, unlike petrol phevs)

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562261#Comment_121562261

Agree. I got 53mpg on my 535d from Wexford to Dublin. I purposely tried to hyper mile though 😁

Cormacca87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560906#Comment_121560906

Thanks for that. Yeah I agree the Born looks to be way ahead of the ID3 and interesting to read your observations.

I can't say I would have been interested at the prices we were seeing last year but now, it looks more realistic.

I actually contacted about that zero mileage car in Limerick but haven't heard back yet. I'd love to test drive one and try it. My driving habits would suit the range and I hear you on the bigger wheels for sure.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559359#Comment_121559359

That was a misprice.

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562261#Comment_121562261

I swapped a Toyota avensis (n47 remapped) to a Camry hybrid. The Camry does about 6.1l, the best the avensis could manage was 6.9l on average.

The hybrid is even better on Cork - Dublin road which I didn’t expect.

PHEVs are the ideal solution though, I’ll keep saying that, but they don’t need to be diesel.

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562042#Comment_121562042

EVs drivetrains aren't fully covered for 8 years are they? Drivetrain being motor...

I know batteries are and that's a good thing.

But what about the motor that drives the wheels? Are they covered? Always wondered myself there never much discussion about motor failure.

grumpygit

BYD atto3 has 6 years 150000 drive unit warranty covering drive motor and drive motor controller

Battery covered for 8 years but only 70% SOH

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562652#Comment_121562652

Ideal solution for what ?

Ev fan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562369#Comment_121562369

There are about 60 2023 Borns for sale at the moment. Cheapest one I saw was eur 33k. You would think prices might come down another 2k or so. I think you might need to be nimble and pounce on one when you see the price dropping. The other thing to do might be to offer a cheeky low bid and see how far the dealer might come down to see how much wriggle room is in the price. I would be inclined to stick with a main dealer and get a 2 year warranty for piece of mind. Whatever you decide- Good Hunting!!👍️

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562796#Comment_121562796

for transporting humans, their dogs and shopping in a safe and convenient manner over both long and short distances.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562893#Comment_121562893

many appear to manage that with a Bev as well and they don’t have the dual drive train issues you get with a hybrid

Woodie40

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121562913#Comment_121562913

There is nothing wrong with PHEVs, they suit some people, personally I prefer EV but my beautiful partner is actually going from a full ev to a PHEV.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563109#Comment_121563109

I disagree to be honest , to me it’s the worst of both worlds, you need to plug them in every night most charge slowly you still have all the ice things to go wrong. They suit some people but most who buy them could manage with a full ev

vicM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563334#Comment_121563334

and since you use one or the other at a time it is inefficient as you are lagging another drive train around

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121563551#Comment_121563551

Very true but a similar argument could be made about dragging a large EV battery around when you only predominantly do short journeys. Swings and roundabouts. By the way an EV is my preference but have no real issue with people who prefer a phev