EV Depreciation

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565893#Comment_121565893

That was never a technological problem. Just a matter for an adequate fast public charging network. That Ireland doesn't have, admittedly.

In the likes of the Netherlands, EV penetration is much higher than in Ireland and a high percentage of owners do not have home charging. It's not a problem there.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565932#Comment_121565932

You don't even have to pay the OAP. Just log into the electric account and pay it directly

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565932#Comment_121565932

That was my first thought, if I was regularly visiting a family member in that manner I'd pay for a decent outdoor socket and slip them money each time I used it. Seems cheaper than paying to get the very long-range models that are available.

Casati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566040#Comment_121566040

Cost to charge at public chargers is a big deterrent

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566040#Comment_121566040

They do however have reasonably priced publicly widely available AC charging. We have none of that.

MojoMaker

Still cheaper than petrol or diesel unless your fossiler is uber-efficient.

Break-even for me was (is) E1.00 per kwh. Figure would be lower if you were used to a more parsimonious vehicle for sure.

But again, for whom is it solely about cost?

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566040#Comment_121566040

We don't know where the tech. will be in 5 or 10 years though.

Faster charging, bigger ranges for less cost etc.

This enabling those who use public charging to use it like a petrol station.

Maybe improved tech. that gives really cheap public charging prices outside peak times.

You have alluded to it already, you could almost pay people to top up when there's an abundance of energy.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566087#Comment_121566087

Not over there. There are public AC chargers everywhere and they cost only a few cent more per kWh than night rate at home. Also Tesla Superchargers are only a few cent per kWh more again, so extremely affordable and far cheaper than fossil fuel (and now open to non-Tesla owners too as the first pilot in the world)

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566126#Comment_121566126

All of that has already happened in other countries, Ireland is a few years behind. I can't wait to opt in to flexible electricity prices myself. I can make the maximum possible contribution personally to the transition to renewable energy. And as an added bonus, it would make me thousands of eur per year playing that game (with free electricity for my house, free hot water heating and free EV driving on top). I'm ready for that today.

djan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565009#Comment_121565009

Thanks for the the detailed response but you've just proven my point. The M3 has measured roughly 305km range in -10degrees at 110km/h so if you bring that to 5ish degrees and headwind (common enough during winter in Ireland) you will be cutting it quite close. The issue is that compared to ICE/PHEV, an EV is extremely risky to drive around with a depleted battery as especially when rural, charging points can be tens of km away if one is not working or busy.

Obviously we are on a forum where people will be much more informed that your average motorist but wanted to point out the issue for a relatively straight forward journey. I've spoken to many an EV owner that was quite surprised about the huge reduction in range at motorway speeds as its basically the opposite what they've know to be the case with ICEs which can often half their consumption at higher steady speeds when compared to urban driving.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566087#Comment_121566087

is it? when you consider how often most need to do it its almost an irrelevance.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566210#Comment_121566210

measured by who? Although I suppose I've never driven it in -10c, I think the lowest we had the two winters I had the 3 was -2 or -3.

At that temp I'd expect more than 305 at 120, so definitely more than 305 going 110.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566211#Comment_121566211

It is of course when you don't have home charging.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566211#Comment_121566211

As long as you have your own driveway and can get a chargepoint installed where you live it's true to say it's irrelevant

If however we want to reach the 2030 target of 1m electric cars 950,000 Electric Vehicles 945,000 Electric Vehicles 675,000* Electric cars on our road we have to have a viable solution for apartment dwellers, renters and students. Having the current AC rate offered by our biggest operator almost 3 times higher than the average home rate isn't going to help them to transition

*Current govt figure of 30% of all vehicles as of 03/01/2024. Subject to further change

sk8board

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565850#Comment_121565850

Not quite, but along those lines and I’ve genuinely zero interest in leeching a few kWh from someone just to own a car with a different propulsion system.

a car is either a convenience or an inconvenience. If I’m stopping or charging on a journey I do nonstop all the time, it’s an inconvenience, and my 1,000km diesel lives to fight another day :)

once there’s a reasonably priced EV that can do my 350km winter journey, I think myself and a lot of others will be onboard

sk8board

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565932#Comment_121565932

you're joking right?

djan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566272#Comment_121566272

EV database shows the 3 at 305km @110km/h in -10 and having looked at various Youtube and international EV sites the range in 5ish degrees @120km/h averages 280-350km. Bear in mind it's not feasible to look at 100-0% charge as in practice you need a bit of a buffer. 110 would be absolutely fine but the jump to 120 takes substantial energy.

Oscar_Madison

Pages and pages of Nissan Leafs on carzone- has to be good negotiation there if buying right now.

I’m two minds as to when to buy and what to buy - I’d be hoping for a max spend of 20k - it will be mainly a second car - choices I’m looking at are

ID3

VW Golf EV

BMW i3

Prices of low milage ones of these are still around 23/4k - obviously also want to try and buy the best kitted out one. Any suggestions on right time to buy gratefully considered. Are we expecting big reductions in next few months on EVs in the second hand market?

Was also looking at the Fiat 500 EV- not really from the perspective of buying it, but just thinking out loud, the ICE version of these cars have massively retained value - probably popular with young new female drivers I imagine or older city dwellers who want something “chic”😀

Anyway, was thinking would the EV version also hold value over time? I’m not so sure - I imagine young people will want a car with good range for weekend away travel etc - this may put that buyer market off?

Spipov

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566460#Comment_121566460

i am in exactly the same situation as you, and looking at the same car with the same budget.

ive also started trying to get a bit more money to try and get into a tesla model 3. im hoping prices will drop more soon in next 2-3 weeks.

crl84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565571#Comment_121565571

I doubt there's many people who can manage or will be undertaking a round trip which would be approx 5hrs, without stopping for 15mins at some point to use the toilet or get a drink/food. Even those who drive for a living are required by law to take a 30min break after 5hrs30m of driving....

But yes, I guess if you're one of these bizarro outliers who is doing 5hr trips from Cork-Dublin and back (or vice versa), without stopping, then an EV isn't for you. For 99.999% of people, this likely isn't the case...

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566477#Comment_121566477

I’ll stalk you so if you don’t mind to see what you do 😀

Ive a 15yo car getting NCTed Jan so will be “presenting” that as my bargaining chip to the lucky salesperson too 🤪

While I’ll try to sell it for cash I’d doubt I’ll get much of a bite so likely it will be dealers I’ll go through when buying my EV.

Really the only thing stopping me right now is just how much will EVs drop by? I’m tempted to wait till Feb or even March just to see what the trade-ins are like and how they’re priced- I think it’s just a bit early to go to the showroom right now for me.

Spipov

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566528#Comment_121566528

i see your point exactly. mine's nct is due march, so not much i can do there, but i know its due a service about now, so im in 2 minds. otherwise my 12 year old car is fine.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566513#Comment_121566513

Where did I say people would drive Dublin Cork and back without stopping? Obviously at destination they stop, do their business and off the go on the return journey.

I wouldn't need to stop if I was driving from Cork to Dublin and I'd suspect the majority of people are similar.

In your case you said you need to make a stop en route anyway so charging along the way is ideal for you.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566528#Comment_121566528

With prices going the way they are we might see a return of the fake scrappage schemes, Hyundai had a scheme in 2017, instead of taking €4k off the asking price manufacturers they gave you €4k for any car that was still within NCT. There were even rumours at the time of a garage that were just selling cash buyers a clunker to give them the discount.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566211#Comment_121566211

The low hanging fruit is still being picked.

It's penetrating those without home charging that's the next big challenge.

So it's far from an irrelevance.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566553#Comment_121566553

Well last year with the other half we had a car not ncted - about 14 years old- so traded that in and got a good chunk of change off - much more than we would have selling it privately -I think it needed some work also - obviously the dealer discounted the selling price of the car a lot - so while getting an NCT done is small change getting anything fixed to get it through the NCT may not be the most beneficial thing for you to do - if you get a good deal with your car in it’s current state, then by all means take it and save that few Bob

Id say my car has run it’s course and things will start to need repair so definitely I need to sell this year

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566591#Comment_121566591

Already there with VW in Kerry. €4k scrappage off an ID4.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566354#Comment_121566354

Err apartment dwellers can have charge points, i lived in a complex 7 or 8 years ago and a resident had a charge point installed for her leaf back then (if you dont have allocated parking i agree its not ideal). Renters need to speak to their landlord, we are talking about a glorified outdoor plug in most cases.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566381#Comment_121566381

i am offering a very simple solution to something that you are presenting as a problem, i am deadly serious.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566658#Comment_121566658

Agreed. Penetration is always far from an irrelevance. We need to erect as many new chargers as possible to assist in the penetration. To lubricate the wheels of change as it were.

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566513#Comment_121566513

My round trip is often cork - Smithfield and back. An ev would introduce a new stop to charge.

going back to the thread though the question is “why bother” and that is the issue evs have. If the tco for an ev was significantly less then one might live with the disadvantages, but if the tco is equal or higher than an ice then aside from the climate zealotry the ev struggles to make a case for itself which is what is happening right now. For many they are being offered what they perceive as a product of less utility; and my view would align with that.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566705#Comment_121566705

😲lol

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566713#Comment_121566713

Smithfield is well served. You could charge while doing your business. Save you stopping. I wouldn't want to stop either tbh.

There's 2 22kw posts on Aughrim Street, very rarely in use.

There's 2 fast chargers on Greek Street, but they are very busy.

They are all within a 5 min walk, but after that the next few are a bit further afield. Quays near Guinness's.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566730#Comment_121566730

Or he could drive an ICE and not have to deal with any of that inconvenience.

Spipov

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566663#Comment_121566663

cant find the right cars at the moment from dealers. im aware of near 2-5k markups on what dealers are offering people to buy their cars and what they are selling for to the public

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566730#Comment_121566730

Of course I “could”, until I couldn’t, but that’s not the point really. The point is for many the ev brings a complication (eg I normally park in q park which is very convenient). The upside (cheaper running of an ev) is now wiped out by the downside (depreciation), leaving only one very good option for many (phev).

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566764#Comment_121566764

Heres what I’m thinking- if they’ve got stung in terms of what they’ve given say in November/December for EV trade ins, they’re going to be offering less now to people trading in - so we’ll hopefully see lower prices and much better supply in the next 6 weeks- I think you could probably bargain them down if desperate to buy now and I’d certainly have no problem walking away right now if they didn’t come down significantly but I think I’ll wait and let the supply increase a bit more - it gives us better bargaining power

Spipov

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566816#Comment_121566816

this. hard to wait isnt it though?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566702#Comment_121566702

Yes I was specifically referring to apartments without dedicated spaces which is quite common in Limerick. Also houses without driveways would have a similar issue

Renters need to speak to their landlord

I can see how that conversation will go 95% of the time

Renter: Will you install a car charger for me?

Landlord: I just remembered I haven't given you a rent increase yet in the last 12/24 months

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566768#Comment_121566768

The big depreciation is only going to impact people who've spent a lot of money in the last 18months whilst new car prices were high. I doubt they're going to sell off their EV and crystallise the loss.

If instead you're buying now the prices have dropped, then you should see similar depreciation to an ICE car.

josip

Is the upside in CO2 and NOX reduction a factor for (m)any? Isn't that surely the biggest upside from an EV, that we're doing something to f-up the planet and environment a bit less than us and our parents did?

For those who can afford them, what's a little inconvenience around planning long trips compared to a less habitable planet for our kids' generation?

*This obviously doesn't refer to or include climate change deniers and China/US/some-othercountry/Green-Party-bad/Ditch-the-car-completely/Greta-is-a-witch whataboutists who can ignore this post.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566864#Comment_121566864

Indeed. Depreciation is a car thing not an EV thing.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566754#Comment_121566754

Petrol, diesel, electric. They are just fuel choices. It’s not a religion so there’s no wrong choice. Personal choice only.

But I’m pointing out a way that an WV could be used without any inconvenience or any need to stop on a Dublin to cork return trip.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566768#Comment_121566768

Well there’s no point playing coulda, woulda, shoulda games in fairness. My diesel was better than my EV until the turbo blew and took half the engine with it. My bmw was better than my EV until the chain snapped and took half the engine with it. Loads of could until I couldn’t games.

If you’re doing the trip “you” stated in an EV, there’s loads of options to charge without stopping in route. If you don’t want to do that in an EV then ice is for you. There’s no point arguing that in an EV forum. Nobody is forcing you to do the trip in an EV but it’s perfectly easy to do.

PHEV, I will never buy another one. Not worth it. I have one, a 530e. But when it’s gone, it’s gone. Out of every car weve owned, it’s been the most troublesome. Classic bmw premium brand I tell ya 😂

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566857#Comment_121566857

Renter doesn’t have to ask the landlord to do it for them. Just get their permission to get one installed.

The tenant I assume will be paying the €400-€600 anyway so it’s a win win for the landlord.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566948#Comment_121566948

Problem there is if/when the tennant moves on they will be leaving the charger behind. Also most tennants don't generally want to bother their landlords unless there's a major problem or they will be perceived as being needy

MojoMaker

@josip - the word zealotry was used earlier in reference to citizens who may wish to do their bit to reduce harmful emissions from driving.

Those who dip in and out of here now and again to take delight in depreciation woes, challenges with charging infrastructure, or poor range - you've got to ask yourself, are they worth wasting oxygen over right now?

All progress forwards has momentum challenges and those whose main self-perspective is inwards are most often the last to get involved, but please let's not actually suggest that moving as quickly as we can towards a cleaner transport system is not the right thing to do, or call that zealotry.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566973#Comment_121566973

That’s the caveat alright and it’s why it’s a win win for the landlord. As the grant is MPRN based it has to stay with the house IMO as part of the agreement.

As a LL I’d have no issue with tenants asking me to proceed with it.

Balmed Out

Driving electric a long time but I think an old banger is the most environmentally friendly choice. Motor tax should probably encourage it!

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567003#Comment_121567003

Yes id agree, in all ways except local air quality.