EV Depreciation

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566702#Comment_121566702

I think its reasonable to acknowledge that some people currently have a difficulty running EVs. You cant wish all problems away. Im sure better solutions will be implemented in future but are not there for some today when people are trying to decide to move to an EV

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567058#Comment_121567058

Well said.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566941#Comment_121566941

Of course there's loads of options but they all have one thing in common - inconvenience

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567058#Comment_121567058

Obviously if you regularly spend the entire day driving 700km mostly on remote country roads and you wouldn't pass a single fast charge point during that day, then an EV is not for you.

lotusm

Just wondering will there be more Chinese cars flooding the European Market in 2024?

Surely that will put downward pressure both new and used electric prices... I think the second half of the year will see this happening.... thoughts anyone ?

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567428#Comment_121567428

That is common cause, the question is when does an EV make a compelling case for itself as being a superior transportation solution. There was a cost argument a few years back, and certainly if you are kitted out with a good pv system there is irrefutable grounds still, but just like diesel before it, it seems the normal punter is better off with a plain petrol or it’s modern iteration, the hybrid.

sk8board

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566704#Comment_121566704

the future of EVs is not visiting friends or relatives outside your range limit and asking them to pay for your journey home … that’s for sure.

thats early adopter stuff. It’s like all those lads in workplace car parks with their cars plugged in - how long do you think that’s going to last. It’s already being curtailed.

SteelyDanJalapeno

A lot of employers offer free EV charging, haven't seen it mentioned much but that has to be a big factor, has saved me 2k+ a year in electricity cost.

Any MNCs have chargers on site, anyone else have 1dt hand experience with their employers?

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567507#Comment_121567507

PV these days is irrelevant to EV driving cost calculations.

It was great during deemed export but that's gone now.

It's pays out ~20c a unit for export.

Night rate for EV can be as low as 5c, say 7c.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567128#Comment_121567128

You have to park the car anyway. It’s all on street parking. So no inconvenience at all. I think it’s an irrational fear by non EV owners. EV owners wouldn’t fear it.

Of that fears you. Fair enough. Stick to ICE. Nobody has a noose around your neck. But here in the EV forum, charging while you’re parked anyway wouldn’t be an inconvenience. It’s a real benefit.

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567523#Comment_121567523

If you and your friends/relatives are that tight, can't you just revolute or transfer the cost of the charge, or reciprocate when they visit.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567428#Comment_121567428

I think the threshold for an EV not being suitable is a lot lower than that.

Anything that requires public charging on a regular basis would be expensive and inconvenient enough to make it a non runner.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567570#Comment_121567570

The first question that gets posted on here when a newbie asked about EV’s is :

1. Can you home charge. It’s the most important part of an EV. Nobody in here has denied that.

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567570#Comment_121567570

There's no way I'd own an Ev without home charging but some do. I don't mind a little inconvenience on longer runs but not on a regular basis.

sk8board

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567564#Comment_121567564

Nothing to do with being tight, quite the opposite - I just can’t imagine going to friends house for dinner or visit an older relative and asking them for some electricity to get back home - “I’ll Revolut you a few euro”. Maybe I’m just old, but it’s a ridiculous notion and more than a bit small minded imho. Embarrassing even?

its just a car - I don’t care about what propels it., but if it’s an inconvenience for my needs, then its an inconvenience full stop.

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567592#Comment_121567592

🤣 I don't think it's age related. The thing is when most of us are in Ev's it will be normal and there's nothing embarrassing at all about it.

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567592#Comment_121567592

Just to add, if a friend or relative of mine had just driven a long distance to see me, I'd be insisting they plug in to my charger at my expense.

John arse

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567635#Comment_121567635

Yeah basic manners like offering tea or coffee or a bite to eat surely?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567507#Comment_121567507

Two compelling arguments: money and the environment. Let's assume you don't give a toss about the environment for a second and we'll just focus on the money. Then your 700km trip half done on home electricity at 5c and the other half done on a public charge point at 40c, in an EV doing say 17kWh / 100km (almost all of them easily do that on a country roads trip, most are better) costs you vs a diesel doing 55MPG costing you €60 instead of €30. Do that trip a few times a week and it starts adding up quickly. 100 of those trips would save €3000.

And the savings from trips where you have charged at home is far higher again. 30k km at 5c vs 55MPG costs €300 in an EV and €3000 in a diesel

And there is cheaper maintenance, tax, insurance, lower depreciation, etc.

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567676#Comment_121567676

Something seems to happening with Ev insurance though, some crazy quotes coming in and a lot of outright refusals, especially with Tesla.

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567592#Comment_121567592

Is it really ridiculous to ask if you can plug in your car? Have you ever charged your phone at someone's house?

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567676#Comment_121567676

Let’s park the environment argument, I’m not saying there isn’t an argument, and there is definitely a break even point where evs are better, but I suspect the case is still that running a 02 Yaris for 400kms and 25 years wins out; but capitalism and human desire is an issue.

regarding costs the 02 Yaris also wins, but a 50k PHEV will have the same access to cheap electricity. It will also do 80k without the engine even warming up, if the grid is such it will use renewable electricity, it also uses less raw materials, and given the ice will only run about 10% of the time it will last forever.

The mistake people made with PHEVs was they went out and bought bmws and Volvos which are for the most part Procrustean efforts.

Yes, I am a Toyota fan, but it’s hard not be be impressed by the sheer simplicity and elegance of their current hybrids and PHEVs from an engineering perspective; and the fact they appear to be largely faultless bears testimony to this.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567676#Comment_121567676

Not everybody will be suited to the few hours 5c rate though. It's actually quite a niche market.

Then if it's a business expense you can possibly claim 23% vat back and write the rest off anyway.

I'm not sure about lower depreciation either. You can do it in a 12 year old ICE with 200000kms clocked that you bought for €1000. I'm not sure what range BEV €1000 would get you.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567428#Comment_121567428

In fairness Im referencing people with no home charging or people needing more than 5 seats (who don't deal drugs😂) or someone who tows. Ive on many previous occasions agreed that for all others an EV should be on their list if upgrading new or used

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567825#Comment_121567825

Would a phev use less raw material than a bev? I agree regarding their hybrids, I had a Lexus IS300H and it was flawless, served me well for six years.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567755#Comment_121567755

Charge a phone is less than €0.05. charging a car for a couple of hours could be 2 or 3 euro depending on what charger they have and the rate they are on.

So yeah, I'd let someone charge their car for an hour, but ask them to revolut me €5.00... seems fair to me.

Also in relation to car depreciation, we have VRT, Dealers (Stealers) and to and extent RHD to blame for that. RHD and VRT (among the other import taxes) severely limit the market to the average Joe. The markup dealers are making on second hand and new cars is ridiculous. I for one would never buy a car from the UK again (at least not one over 2 or 3 years old.... Rust buckets)

Like if second hand car is on sale for €20,00, the trade price is probably around €12,000 or less.

Some of the Newer EV companies are trying hard to cut out the dealer network as it makes the price of their vehicle uncompetitive compared to ICE vehicles.

crl84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566768#Comment_121566768

QPark has EV chargers in the car park.

So it wouldn't involve an extra stop at all, and your car would be charging while you're doing your business.

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567886#Comment_121567886

I've no issue with the paying for it part. The previous poster said it's ridiculous to ask someone if you can charge your car. 99% of people wouldn't want 5eur anyway, assuming it's not every other day you're looking to charge.

crl84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566754#Comment_121566754

ICE cars don't just magic petrol/diesel into them. It's not much different than finding a petrol station and filling up. And the frequency is less for most people, due to home charging.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567913#Comment_121567913

How about you're having friends or family members over with multipe EVs looking for a charge to get home. Id have no issue with someone seeking a charge if they needed it but for a lot of EV drivers free electricity is like cocaine, they wont know when to stop😂. Remember the locals hogging the free public changers.

It will be the same with feee work charging when a significant proportion of workers are driving EVs, que a new IR problem

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567951#Comment_121567951

We're getting to edge cases here! If I've multiple EVs who've driven 175km one way (this was the original case) to visit me, then they can charge away.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567894#Comment_121567894

Assuming they are available of course.

Casati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567676#Comment_121567676

Good to see analysis like this - I do a similar trip and aside from an EV forcing two extra stops to charge it worked out slightly dearer to fuel- ie Ionity 71 cent, my night rate 15 cent and 20kW avg for higher motorway speed. I do it twice a month but on long days working and driving it’s massively inconvenient having the car force me to stop - I’m stopping in the city anyway and will get food, toilet time etc, so don’t need to an added stop in Kildare each way.

If fuelling an EV isn’t cheaper for me then it’s another diesel where I’ve seen v low cost to change and zero repairs etc as I sell up often and early

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567894#Comment_121567894

Assuming they are free (unlikely) and my business is done before the procrastination surcharges kick in (highly unlikely).

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568307#Comment_121568307

Don't buy an EV yet, ICE vehicles will be on sale new until 2035, and available used till at least 2050. If your so set on finding reasons why it won't work for you maybe you should just put off purchasing an EV and not worry about it.

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568431#Comment_121568431

I’m just demonstrating why many of the general populace are not too anxious to take the Sh models bought by the early adopters, that’s the thread topic I think.

Casati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567755#Comment_121567755

Would folk think it’s fine to ask to siphon a few litres of home heating oil off their Ma to fill up the Jetta Diesel? I certainly wouldn’t dream of asking somebody I was visiting to provide me with fuel for calling up

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568431#Comment_121568431

He's not "finding reasons" merely stating what are actual valid reasons.

unkel

@liamog - "ICE vehicles will be on sale new until 2035, and available used till at least 2050."

I thought all ICE vehicles would have to be scrapped by 2046? Classic cars from 2006 or before excepted.

drunkmonkey

You really think that's going to happen, lol, worst case scenario some classics will be exported. That stop oil brigade are unhinged. Little did I think Patrick Moore would be a conspiracy theorist hated by the greens rolling into 2024.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568548#Comment_121568548

Poster is doing the same thing we've seen for years now, people coming to an EV forum and telling EV owners why their cars don't work. As BEVs become more capable the requirements become increasingly broad. EVs aren't for everyone yet, but we've a long time to go before they need to fill every niche.

The current wave of depreciation has little to do with capabilities of the cars for sale, the issue is a general economic slowdown due to inflation, coupled with manufacturers not being able to milk the gravy train of a supply constrained new BEV market. That's led to new prices dropping back to more reasonable levels and used prices taking a corresponding hit.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566999#Comment_121566999

You would be one of the good ones, I had a LL once refuse to allow me to install a hub controller (wifi connected thermostat) worst thing is it would have cost neither of us anything

Some LLs see the smallest things as unwanted hassle

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568630#Comment_121568630

The only bans I'm aware of that are legislated for are the 2030 55% reduction in tailpipe CO2 emissions and 2035 100% reduction in tailpipe CO2 both apply to new cars and vans sold in the EU. I've not seen any legislation targeting used cars.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568307#Comment_121568307

There’s no time surcharge on destination chargers in the locations I’ve mentioned or the location you’ve mentioned you park in.

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568669#Comment_121568669

Firstly as a moderator of boards I should have thought you would be glad that there is active debate here and not tumbleweed; the future of the site isn’t always assured.

Secondly the last thing you want in any forum is groupthink and echo chambers.

Thirdly this is an EV and Hybrid forum. I own both a hybrid, and a PHEV; the PHEV of which I traded in for another in the next few days at a good rate. I originally posted that it seems HVs and PHEVs are not apparently suffering from the same residual malaise as EVs from my own current experience.

The reality here is the mainstream are not ready for what I have do doubt is the future for two reasons:

1) the infrastructure is rubbish

2) there hasn’t been a second act yet to move on from what I think was the historical and momentous Tesla Model S.

Gumbo

EV forum is one of the busiest on the site. I don’t think we need to worry about tumbleweed just yet.

Its perfectly fine not to want an EV, but to the posters coming in for a glance and posting that EV’s can’t do the very thing EV owners do with little to no inconvenience is laughable.

It just seems like the goalposts are constantly moved. So what. Buy an ICE. It’s not a cult. Nobody else cares.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567003#Comment_121567003

I disagree, the most environmentally friendly choice is a bicycle, with an old banger Vs EV it's probably less efficient on fuel and needs replacement parts the whole time

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567506#Comment_121567506

Possibly but I don't think so

I see these brands as being cheap but not necessarily value for money and I think the second hand market will reflect this... Also I read an article a few months back that we would have 20 odd brands by the end of the year, I count 3?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568692#Comment_121568692

They were saying a few years ago 2030 would be the limit for new sales and from 2040 an ICE wouldn't pass the NCT

The goalposts keep moving on that though

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568719#Comment_121568719

boards is one of the few php bbs still alive. It’s a good resource. Informed debate is good, you may disagree with the content, but that’s hardly the point.

Mass market EVs didn’t exist until the Tesla Model S which is still on sale. The technology is still developing. I think they are still in the Betamax, dvd+rw, windows 3.1 phase; and if they are not then it is likely they will not survive.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568716#Comment_121568716

I think we can look to more mature markets and see that most of the 'problems' aren't really problems at all. Infrastructure is improving every month, @zg3409 seems to spend every other day posting about a new DC charger in the charger notification thread.

EV sales have sat at just under 20% for the last three plates, I don't think that's a sign of not ready for the mainstream.

The Nissan Leaf was the mass market EV mover, that, the eGolf, and the BMW I3 released 10 years ago. Its only with Model 3 and Model Y that Tesla have moved into mass market production.

People have been calling for a cheaper EV entry price for years, now that the entry prices are dropping the same people are complaining about depreciation due to price drops.

I don't think PHEVs saw the same demand induced price gouging so haven't seen the same price reductions.