EV Depreciation

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633110#Comment_121633110

BMW the same. Have a new 220i this week. All screen nearly as many buttons as a Tesla!

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633100#Comment_121633100

er im not attacking you just making an observation anyway we have sorted it out, carry on Woodie😀

im a bit like you, tend to go towards the german brands, like i know the BYD seal is a much better value proposition than a bmw i4 but id still probably go for the BMW, i do need to get over that!

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633154#Comment_121633154

I don’t know how the Chinese cars are avoiding the stigma of being inferior.

Few truckers will compare a “Sino” to their Scania or Volvo (and will proudly say their Volvo is an actual Volvo made by Volvo). Equally a Chinese piece of Agri or construction equipment is valueless secondhand compared to a more recognised brand.

Are we too trusting of MG/BYD etc.

djan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635602#Comment_121635602

I'd argue it's mostly to do with with propaganda and marketing. For the vast majority of cars, regardless of badge the components and especially drivetrains/batteries in EVs are from China. I don't think the likes of Tesla are seen as inferior due to using Chinese batteries.

The issue with perceiving Chinese made stuff as low quality is because people often think of the low end cheap stuff. More often than not, for equal price you'll get a lot more than EU products.

Flinty997

I don't think it's a simple question.

Supplying components under the QA and processes of an established brand is very different. The quality of Apple versus the Chinese own brands and support and infrastructure is very different.

The problem with Chinese cars is they don't have a long history in the market. Their track record within China itself is "mixed". So there are issues.

That said the traditional western car brands have been having problems with QA and various issues which have damaged their status in the market relative to the Chinese brands. Tesla is whole different non-traditional model.

It's a market in flux, maybe it will be turned on it's head, maybe that has already happened, maybe it will return to how it's been in the past. You'd need a crystal ball to predict it.

joe1303l

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635602#Comment_121635602

Biggest fear of SINO etc. with Truckers will be availability of spare parts in the long term.

Flinty997

It's been an issue with some EVs (not specifically Chinese) not having parts in the supply chain for repairs making them so expensive as to be write offs.

We have seen some repair shops offering refurbishment of parts, batteries and motors etc. But ironically they are struggling to get the volumes to make the repair business viable. Open to correction on that.

That said we've seen some supply issues with ICE car parts holding up repairs also.

traco

This is just repeating history, similar to Japanes cars and bikes. Started copying but quickly moved to innovating. Now Japanese is probably considered better built than European.

These circular discussions are a wate of time. EVs are simpler and will get cheaper as tech moves and the manufacturing process gets more efficient. The post covid madness isover and I am delighted that the ridiculous price inflation by many manufacturers is now clearly visible. The established manufacturers will react and prices overall for regular cars will drop from all brands. 3/4 year old cars will be 50% of their new equivalent and that alignment will start to happen this year and going forward.

Dismissing something from China just becasue its China or anywhere else makes no sense. Dismiss it on the merits of the materials, finish, reliability etc for a valid disucssion or else just say you don't line products from a particular country which if absolutley fine but has no brearing on the quality of the product.

I think the future looks great for good quality affordable EV motoring.

sk8board

Speaking of trucks, didn’t Harris group on the Long Mile Road start importing Hino’s 40 years ago from china, and I don’t remember there being any issue with perception or parts :)

on the flip side, I’ve a 50yo friend who know nothing about cars but loves his Mercedes e class. He wouldn’t even know what a byd was.

you have to think about the mass market buyer when considering who will buy Chinese cars here - almost everyone would without a second thought.

early Hyundai/Kias?

dacia?

etc

they sell in large volumes due to being well prices and decent spec. A basic mode of transport. tick ✅.

Flinty997

Japanese stuff was different. Came out of the gate being seen as more reliable, a known QA process. Just not original.

That's not been true of Chinese goods in general (excluding EVs).

EVs is a different market. Tesla has redefined what a car can be, part of that is not building to the same traditional quality. Chinese are mirroring that. As are VW with their IDs.

That's very different to what happened in the 70s.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639669#Comment_121639669

Perhaps because 40yrs ago they didn't have Brexit, COVID, shipping attacks, Yadda, and a new product every 5 mins to make a support logistics a nightmare.

Japanese imports when they first arrived had lots of problems with non standard parts. Because the Japanese had much shorter product lifecycles. Europe had 2 models in the same time Japan had 20.

traco

Early jap stuff also started dissolving in our climates almost immediately when off the boat if I recall.

I disagree about China quality. I'm trying on a phone made in China. My last one was a Chinese made phone and I changed as battery life was greatly reduced. I've had industrial equipment made in China and come to the conclusion that it's as good as European stuff once you ask them to use better components. There seem to be two tiers targetted at least products I have worked with. Domestic market price and then export. Export typical a few % more expensive and tighter control. To me it's just marketing now and perception.

joe1303l

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639669#Comment_121639669

HINO are a Japanese manufacturer of trucks with an enviable reputation for longevity. NLA in Europe due to emissions regulations.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639833#Comment_121639833

That's not a quality issues it's a rust proofing issue because we salt our roads and they don't. They also don't keep cars as long. So they don't need it.

I'm not sure how "tighter control" & "better components" is just marketing and perception.

I'm on decent older Chinese phone. Last security update was march 2023. They update the bloat apps constantly though.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639878#Comment_121639878

Hino or it's parent company have been around since 1917 and in Ireland 50 years. It has long history here.

How long have MG (Chinese) and BYD been in Ireland? Asking how established a brand is, when it's only just arrived (relatively speaking) is a bit of a daft question. Give it time. MG is well regarded by anyone with decent mileage on one. Byd are undercutting everyone else on bang for buck.

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639882#Comment_121639882

The SIAC vans (LDV or whatever) are pretty grim and badly made. I have sat in more than one for work, and my work involves people in fancy dress and wigs…

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640171#Comment_121640171

Never heard of them tbh...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640171#Comment_121640171

It's a learning process for the Chinese, the same as what happened with Japanese back in 1960's. The first Datsuns were copies of British cars bit like the SAIC was a microwaved LDV from 1990's.

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640364#Comment_121640364

Except Datsun made the leylands better, siac made them somehow worse. My only point is a BYD isn’t a BMW.

While the parts issue isn’t as pressing with cars as most other things, one thing that will harm long term depreciation is issues with parts; you need only look at Saab or those Chryslers in this respect.

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640193#Comment_121640193

You never heard of saic motors but speak authoritatively about mg? Alrighty then!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121641802#Comment_121641802

Not sure why you think knowing a bit about MG EV cars via long term reviews and owner reports should give me insight into every part of a vast corporation like SIAC, or even of their vans.

One branch make buses and trolley buses. Should expect a test about those?

yllw.ldbttr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121641762#Comment_121641762

Anyone I know who had issues with their i4 (which happens to be a lot of people) often spent months waiting for parts. In my own case over 3 months.

Maybe my experience is different from yours but anyone thinking that the so called legacy brands are offering a superior customer experience or higher quality product is stuck in a view that was typical of many years ago.

Those days are gone IMHO, and I speak as someone who's driven German cars for 20+ years including two i4s.

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121641969#Comment_121641969

No, I’m just pointing out that saic vans are rubbish, so there is a chance their cars are too.

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121642034#Comment_121642034

All vans are rubbish nowadays, I manage the fleet in work of about 25 of them, trouble with every brand they're a pain trying to keep on the road

Flinty997

I think we are broadly on the same wave length. Just not enough experience with the new brands to know for sure how good they will be.

But the established brands have their own problems. Nothing is what is was.

It's not just EVs either. Had enough problems with my recent ice cars.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121642114#Comment_121642114

I think the new cars have finally reached the point where the cost reduction and the aim for low fuel consumption and increased complexity of systems has finally reached the point that the cars are not fully up the job anymore, reliably.

PureBred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121505150#Comment_121505150

So it was 16k trade value for the iD3? Or am i reading it correctly?

helimachoptor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691366#Comment_121691366

yep, GMFV was 15k i think

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691366#Comment_121691366

Isn't the box where it says Deposit/Part Exchange and the handwritten note (car/grant) the value of the posters ID.3. Grant is currently €3,500 giving the car a trade value of €28,000. The settlement box means the poster still has €20,847.68 to pay of the remaining finance leaving them with €7,152.32 equity in the car.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121694182#Comment_121694182

thats what i thought as well (unless they were also adding a cash deposit?)

PureBred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121694182#Comment_121694182

Ya but theres no way they were getting a trade value of 28k for a 3 year old car which was 38k new.

MojoMaker

How is the price they may have paid 3yrs ago relevant?

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121694451#Comment_121694451

Normally I'd agree but they've rather helpfully included a piece of paper which shows it to be the case.

Trade in values aren't always directly linked to the value of the car, value on a deal is often manipulated between trade in value and interest rates.

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121505224#Comment_121505224

Normal alright but EVs seems to get hit more.Dealers protecting their margins and covering present/future issues with EVs

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121695483#Comment_121695483

Only recently. Chinese EV makers and Tesla started a price war. It will eventually effect everything, including ICE cars.

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121695525#Comment_121695525

Also,lack of interest by motorists generally towards EVs so far.The Chinese could change that

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121695804#Comment_121695804

I'm not sure thats wholly accurate.

A total of 22,789 new electric cars were registered in 2023, an increase on the 15,678 registrations seen in 2022 (+45.4%) and 3,444 in 2019 (+561.7%).

Market share for 2023 seen Petrol account for 30.07%, Diesel 22.16%, Electric 18.70%, Hybrid 18.54% and Plug-In Hybrid 8.28%. Petrol continues to remain the most popular engine type for 2023, while Electric, Hybrid, and Plug-in electric hybrid account for 45.5% of the market. 

Automatic transmissions now account for (64.54%) of market share, while manual transmissions have declined (35.35%).

donkey balls

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619621#Comment_121619621

Did they cold call you or were you looking at changing, I know 2 year ago when there was a shortage of 2nd hand cars. A lad in work got a call of the garage he bought his car in asking if he interested in selling.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121701192#Comment_121701192

just rang out of the blue.

donkey balls

Would you be tempted to change or hold on to the current car.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121701454#Comment_121701454

Cost to change is too high, the facelift on the etron is very mild so wasn’t of interest (new 55 is 112k now in sline spec )

kanuseeme

In another thread the cost to change is not worth talking about.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121701621#Comment_121701621

If you can point me to where the cost to change in my circumstances make sense then work away, if you can’t crawl back under your rock.

you have no understanding of context clearly.

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121701654#Comment_121701654

Just pointing out whats good for the goose is good for the gander, maybe you can explain your particular case instead of hiding under your rock.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121701678#Comment_121701678

It’s a 95k car that’s now 112k in facelifted form, the facelift is very slight and I don’t need the bigger batter they have put into the new 55 so on that basis I don’t see the value in paying a lot of money to get something very similar when mine is 18 months old , make sense ?

jiminho

What’s everyone’s thoughts about buying used EVs? I see a lot of ID3s and ID4s coming on the market, probably because the PCPs are all ending from 3 years ago. Seems you can comfortably get a 3 year old ID3 for less than 25k and ID4 more around 30k. We’re not in a rush to swap out our car (1 car family for the meantime but need to get a second) so can probably wait until 2025. Perhaps at that point the same cars would be around 20k and 25k respectively. We’d prob keep them both for 5 years bringing them to 8/9 years old. Would the cars essentially be worthless than as the battery might need replacing?

Casati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121703881#Comment_121703881

Buying used should allow you to take advantage of the high depreciation but focus on buying something with decent warranty as despite the fact that in theory EV’s have few parts to go wrong, a major failure could be mega expensive

sk8board

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121703881#Comment_121703881

The only thing I’d caution against is that almost every ID car has ongoing issues to iron out, and the one you’d buy will have them too.

It’s just one tiny example, but the ID4 thread is talking about phantom braking issues at low speed today, or the usual issues with Software, scheduling overnight charging, or door latches.

youd want to be getting a good deal, and I’d definitely assume if I were you that you’ll have some quirks during ownership.

MICKEYG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121707063#Comment_121707063

Is that EVs in general or just VW?

k123456

From my reading of the thread, some software issues on VW and MG, firmware or SW updates can help, but these seem to be slow to roll out

I worked for a large manufacturer of computer servers , new models or new generations would experience fairly serious issues . Basically when a company develops a new product , car or server for example, there is a rush to have the product launched sold to the public, before a competitor launches their model, the new model is in effect tested by the early adopters