Boeing 737 Max

HTCOne

The whole point of the “plug” design is that the plug/door is bigger than the hole in the fuselage and therefore the plug/door can’t just blow out like this (the pressure differential between the cabin and exterior pushes the large door flush against a hole too small for it to travel through). When installing plugs/doors you need to bring them inside the aircraft on their side and then line them up with the hole.

This is most likely a result of improper installation at the factory given the aircraft is only 2 months old, unless the plug was removed and re-installed since (very unlikely).

artanevilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121581966#Comment_121581966

Iceland are an EASA member state.

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121581966#Comment_121581966

I was adding information rather than correcting.

IngazZagni

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121581943#Comment_121581943

Turkish have temporarily withdrawn their 5 737 Max 9's for inspection.

Icelandair don't have the plugged door in question on the Max 9 so are not affected.

Captain_Crash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121579129#Comment_121579129

Pedantic me, but the plugged door on EI’s A321’s has a window and is at row 24, rest of the post is spot on!

phonypony

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121582049#Comment_121582049

Those safety cards read "737-8MAX/-9MAX Rafts"

StudentDad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121582277#Comment_121582277

Fair enough, still won't make me fly on one of them willingly. What sort of outcome would there have been if this was at a considerably higher altitude?

Story after story about Boeing keep coming out. Delays, quality issues, etc etc., If I had a car that randomly tried to kill me on my way to work, I wouldn't be getting into it. I'm not a pilot. but if I were every time I sat down behind those controls I'd be asking, what random crap is going to happen today? I'm sure pilots ask themselves those questions before every flight, but I'm sure most of 'em aren't expecting a section of fusilage to randomly break away from the plane.

Fritzbox

But you are still far more likely to die in a road accident than flying in an airliner - so why do you still fly on planes?

StudentDad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121582499#Comment_121582499

It's a question of trust. I trust that my car is built properly. I trust that Airbus jets are just put together correctly or at least weren't let out of the hangar knowing there is a fundamental fault in the design. The two hideous crashes that happened because of a design fault that the company knew about and frankly sidestepped and paid a large fine for doesn't inspire trust. Nobody went to prison for that. The continuing litany of problems, faults, delays etc., builds a picture that's frankly scary. When I get on a plane I'd like to think the risks have been minimised, that the crew know what they're doing, the groundcrew etc. If I can't trust the people who built the bloody plane? Who can I trust?

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121582027#Comment_121582027

I doubt people are worried about plugged escape exits. Those will all be checked, because stable doors are always checked despite the horse being gone.

They are worried about what the next failure is going to be, the one that hasn't happened yet.

Because when a company is clearly operating unsafely then another problem is inevitable.

enfant terrible

Does Ryanair fly the 737 Max out of Shannon? flying to Faro at the end of the month.

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121582846#Comment_121582846

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

waterwelly

It's almost 5 years since the second max. crash. Hundreds of thousands of flying hours since. Really no need to be avoiding them.

Astral Nav

Previous posters have a point, average customer expects a safe aircraft and something is culturally and quality wise just wrong with Boeing. Have said that and as the previous poster said, 737 Max has been safely flying now for five years, MCAS is now understood and limited, plug doors are now probably the most scrutinized part in any new Max 9. The system does try and make itself better and has done so massively in the last fifty years but it's some run of stuff ups by B.

Widdensushi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583067#Comment_121583067

Possibly safer than the rest due to the scrutiny....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121580601#Comment_121580601

I was thinking that. They will ideally need to locate that as it would hold some answers.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583127#Comment_121583127

Over 10000 Boeing's in regular service. And yet you have clowns trying to avoid them due to a single isolated incident on a type that doesn't even fly from Ireland.

Broadly speaking the pilot community are not fond of the modern 737 family. Pilots drool about other aircraft, and in the Boeing family most have particular fondness for the old 757, out of production, describing it as a “rocket” with plenty of spare power to get out of situations. It was noisy and wasn’t economical to run. Lovely pax experience.

https://youtu.be/TKpZ6_tU7-s?feature=shared

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583170#Comment_121583170

Thats just stupid. Nobody is avoiding anything because of one incident, they are avoiding a manufacturer that has demonstrated a lack of safe practice. It isn't complicated.

On Jan 8th 2024 the FAA released their Emergency Airworthiness Directive EAD 2024-02-51 requiring all Boeing 737-9 MAX aircraft certified in any category with mid cabin door plugs installed to be inspected upon receipt of the EAD, the operation of the aircraft is prohibited until that inspection is completed. Special flight permits are available for unpressurized flights only. The FAA reasons: "This emergency AD was prompted by a report of an in-flight departure of a mid cabin door plug, which resulted in a rapid decompression of the airplane. The FAA is issuing this AD to address the potential in-flight loss of a mid cabin door plug, which could result in injury to passengers and crew, the door impacting the airplane, and/or loss of control of the airplane."

Extract from AvHerald

Seems someone forgot to bolt it closed properly. Could have been a tragedy. Fortunately not even any real damage to the plane.

https://youtu.be/29ghXy6O2dc?feature=shared

That pilot had a bit of a job convincing ATC she had a potentially disastrous emergency and simply had to descend asap

mickdw

I'm very interested to know the fixing mechanism of this door.

How it has managed to remain with the aircraft since delivery flying at 30 to 40k feet and now just blew out at 16k.

It must have been hanging on by a loosely threaded bolt or something.

Major accident avoided by nothing but pure luck.

mickdw

Pilot seemed abit panicked there. Is it not required procedure to do mayday or pan pan.

Widdensushi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583399#Comment_121583399

Seemed to me like they were trying to get information,the important thing was to descend asap , obviously get information from the cabin crew then.

helimachoptor

I assume this wasn’t the planes first flight, it’s seen a lot of travel in two months and not failed, guess it’s cumulative stress caused it?

gossamerfabric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583399#Comment_121583399

aviate, navigate, communicate in that order. if you want clear commincation for your entertainment then wait for the dramatized movie with Cate Blanchett.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583482#Comment_121583482

From what I’m seeing there is a likelihood the door section was opened for a routine inspection, but failed to be bolted back in place. It’s probable this was the air raft’s first flight after that particular inspection. Seems the “bolted back in place” wasn’t specifically on the checklist, but taken for granted it was part and parcel of the process to sign off on.

gossamerfabric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583127#Comment_121583127

keep talking the Max down. I want some cheap flights on Ryanair for late March and April.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583399#Comment_121583399

I was in an aircraft cockpit when a Pan Pan was declared. Decades ago, I was on an overnight light cargo flight from Dublin to Bonn, back via Southend. Student pilots got these opportunities way back in the day, the pilots had a lonely job in the night and some liked trusted company, and helped as a safety person to ensure pilot kept awake.

As it happened it was a very good thing I was on board. We were climbing out of Southend and I was enjoying the lovely sunny Essex landscape on my right side. We were passing Burnham on Crouch and my eye caught sight of a big round gap in the wing. The fuel cap was flying in the airstream, with chain caught on edge of fuel tank at exit. Fuel was free to be sucked out by lower pressure above wing. I informed the pilot, as he said he would not have known were it not for my presence. He went white as a sheet and told me to keep my beady eye on the fuel cap and take note of the location if it fell off as he’d need to retrieve it, to get a Titan fuel cap it would need to arrive from USA and we would have been stuck in Southend.

I checked fuel tanks in case there was any notable rapid loss, which there wasn’t. He then declared Pan Pan, to declare his immediate return to Southend. In meantime I was taking note of every road and back garden we were flying over, ready to track fuel cap trajectory if it became separated. Fortunately it stayed clinging for dear life until we landed back at Southend.

Other aircraft were cleared from our path, was interesting to hear the communications, including a “good luck” one from a British Airways pilot in the vicinity.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583813#Comment_121583813

Michael O’Leary might recommend keeping all doors open during flight for quick turnaround 😁

goingnowhere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121582237#Comment_121582237

Far cop, row 24 is the plug, row 25 has no window due the structural requirements for the plug

3d4life

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583158#Comment_121583158

The middle and window seats next to the missing door were reserved by two people who are said to not have made the flight.....

John.G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583376#Comment_121583376

This a excellent site IMO.

https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/656760-alaska-airlines-737-900-max-loses-door-flight-out-pdx-14.html

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583173#Comment_121583173

They used to say the same about the VC10!

757 was basically a narrowbody with (somewhat scaled-down) widebody engines. A321LR can do pretty much the same job but with far lower empty weight / fuel consumption.

I only did one trip on a 757, to the Canaries, fully laden so takeoff wasn't quite as sporty as that video, but still pleasant to fly on. Was seated right at the back and it was interesting to see just how much flex there was in the airframe when hitting light turbulence (this is, of course, normal, but not many narrow body planes are that long and in one-class configuration with no curtains you can see right to the front)

According to some pilots anyway, 737 cockpit is very outdated, awkward, cramped and noisy by modern (Airbus) standards. Not surprising as the basic design goes back nearly 60 years and some (nose and cockpit shape and fuselage section) borrowed from the 707 which was on the drawing board 70 years ago.

Really Boeing should have introduced an all-new replacement instead of the MAX but the bean counters wouldn't let them. It was all downhill for Douglas, who used to be regarded as the best civil airliner manufacturer, once McDonnell took them over and it's been all downhill for Boeing since they took over McDonnell Douglas but somehow the MDD bean counters ended up in control.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583127#Comment_121583127

The scrutiny that failed to prevent the Alaska incident.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583324#Comment_121583324

Don't they use MAYDAY in the States ?!?

They were still using their normal callsign and the second controller had to ask them if they had declared an emergency...

XsApollo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583376#Comment_121583376

Well , there are loose bolts on some of them. Not the plug but probably a worse place.

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/29/1222228617/boeing-737-max-jets-faa-loose-bolts-nuts

HTCOne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121584592#Comment_121584592

Rarely. More often than not when I have a US aircraft declare emergency, they fail to use “PAN” or “MAYDAY”.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583786#Comment_121583786

Needing to drop to 10000 ft would be the primary immediate concern but surely the quickest way to achieve that would be to call mayday to focus the minds of the controllers and not have them asking a lot of questions.

Unless of course its allowable to just dive the aircraft without permission.

gossamerfabric

aviate, navigate, communicate in that order.

HTCOne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121584811#Comment_121584811

In an emergency, the aircraft commander doesn’t need permission to do anything. They can just tell the likes of me what they’re doing, and it is then my job to keep everyone else out of their way.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121584980#Comment_121584980

Yes OK but coming onto radio without being super clear is not great.

You cannot aviate in the required way (immediate drop to 10k or so) without getting your message across in a clear and concise manner.

Is it not expected that pilot would give mayday or pan pan call in such a scenario?

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121585159#Comment_121585159

No point calling mayday as nobody can help.

I'm not sure why you think he can't aviate to 10000 feet without having to giving out clear and concise messages first.

mickdw

So what's the procedure - blindly dive the aircraft to 10k without notifying this.

As far as I'm aware, mayday or pan pan is the internationally recognised emergency call out.

If pilot simply put out the mayday and stated sudden depressurisation, everyone would know the situation immediately.

As it was pilot mentioned depressurisation but without the mayday atc were left wondering whether it was somehow a lesser event.

AnRothar

Mayday and Pan Pan mean different things.

Mayday is serious.

Pan Pan is we have a problem but it's not an immediate problem.

In descending order pilots priorities will be.

Aviate

Navigate

Communicate.

The pilot should assess the situation. Decide on the appropriate course of action. Enact said course of action. Tell people what they are doing.

Yes it's helpful if they share their intention but it's lower in their priorities.

Sometimes the first indication ATC get is observing the change in action rather than being told about it.

So yes blindly diving to 10,000 ft without telling anyone could happen.

Unlikely but not beyond the bounds of possibilities.

John.G

Very lucky they were not in the cruise since it blew the cockpit door open as well.

https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/656760-alaska-airlines-737-900-max-loses-door-flight-out-pdx-17.html#post11571033

JohnC.

A Portland teacher found the door plug in his back yard.

goingnowhere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121585378#Comment_121585378

Thats expected and engineered to happen and indeed required by safety authorities to happen

phonypony

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121583809#Comment_121583809

There is no scheduled maintenance inspection required on the plug or surround until 24 Months/4,000 Cycles, so if Alaska performed any inspections in that area they were for some other reason.

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121585253#Comment_121585253

From watching lots of Youtube aviation videos, there is a notable lack of adherence to international standard language among US pilots and ATC - wouldn't it just be easier if they spoke like everyone else?