National Hurling League 2024 Discussion

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002070#Comment_122002070

just threw up what’s common knowledge. Twenty seconds into this- https://x.com/offtheball/status/1777807448054931823?s=46
ps. This is not me. And he’s not from the same county. I suppose it’ll be the Munster conspiracy next.

hurlaway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002216#Comment_122002216

It's common knowledge that many football counties ignore hurling buts that's not a problem to you only kk and football very objective

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002369#Comment_122002369

😂😂😂 The thread was called Kilkenny and football.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003002#Comment_122003002

He said everyone should play football. He said nobody should be like Kilkenny which is relevant to the previous questions you were posting. He said they're our national games and you can't play them to this level anywhere else and we should do everything we can to play and protect them. No problem, chief.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003157#Comment_122003157

God knows. Nothing interesting anyway. Good luck.

terryrogers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001235#Comment_122001235

Same story every year, people try to 'fix' Leinster and rave about Munster until the last week of the round robin where usually there are dead rubber matches in Munster and 2 so called Munster powerhouses seasons are over, and then people want scrap the provincials - rinse, cycle, repeat.

You say Munster has more danger? Tipp won 1 game out of 4 in last year's round robin but still went through. Limerick won 2 games out of 4 and went on to secure a Munster 5 in a row. Contrast that with Wexford who also won 2 games, but were an injury time disallowed goal away from being relegated to the Joe McDonagh. A wonderful 9 goal game that was I might add.

As bad as Leinster is touted to be, the round robin has gone down to the wire on a few occasions with the top 4 teams all being in danger of being knocked out in the final game. Last year's Leinster hurling final turned on the last puck of the game in extra time and was one of the most dramatic and entertaining finals in recent history.

Maybe you's are trying to 'fix' the wrong province?

Montys return

Wexford haven't beaten Westmeath in 2 years, and Tipp didn't lose a match until they were effectively guaranteed progression. Those statements need context.

But any Munster vs Leinster debates disguise from the real issue which is the All Ireland should involve all teams in the top tier and be separate from the Provincials.

terryrogers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122007921#Comment_122007921

Tipp were far from guaranteed progression, as if Cork had drawn with Limerick weren't Tipp knocked out? Context you say... you could also state that Westmeath have beaten Wexford just once in years, if ever (not sure)?

Your second point aligns with my overall point really... Why are people in this thread pontificating about what needs to change about the Leinster championship when the real barrier to progress is the provincial system, sacred Munster championship, etc.

Billy Ocean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122008109#Comment_122008109

Tipp definitely weren't guaranteed progression as I vividly remember Sheedy on RTE with a panicked look on his face at half time in the Gaelic Grounds hearing of the events in Thurles, as a Wexford supporter myself all I'll say is a record of 2 wins a draw and a loss vs Kilkenny and Galway compared to a draw and 3 losses vs Westmeath and Dublin shows how inconsistent we were the last 2 years and we're all hoping Keith Rossiter will help to fix that.

evolvingtipperary101

After a record-breaking attendance total of close to 300,000 last season, ticket revenue will be greater than the 2022 figure of €4,736,267… If the product wasn't good people wouldn't spend their money and show up.

Look at the headlines: Tipperary and Limerick play out pulsating draw - Cork and Tipperary finish all-square after Munster epic - Clare stand tall in Munster thriller against Limerick -

John Kiely on the highlight of his career: 'John Kiely has hailed Limerick's Munster senior hurling championship success last year as “the highlight of my time involved with the team”.'

Pre-covid figures report: 'The increase is driven by Munster, which has drawn some extraordinary attendances, such as Sunday’s 39,115 for the meeting of Tipperary and Limerick despite a sense that the match wouldn’t matter in the greater scheme of things and the counties will meet again in the provincial final in a fortnight.

The overall figure to date is 329,542 as opposed to 310,051 12 months ago. It includes a 14,000 drop in Leinster from 106,387 to 92,386, offset by an increase of more than 30,000 in Munster.'

Looking at the Leinster hurling finals… A loss of 22,337 attendance in 20 seasons…

You'd be changing the most successful championship to save the second one. Makes no sense. Leinster has to solve Leinster.

Leinster have got to press the panic button because it's in freefall. A major wake up call is needed, from the schools game up. They've got to find ways to make the game competitive and draw people from Dublin, Wexford, Offaly, and elsewhere, otherwise the figures for finals and going to games will keep dwindling. The culture of going to games at all levels is dying around the province. It starts with the clubs and schools.

Pre- Covid figures:
Munster Hurling round robin attendances 2019
Total
2019: 329,542
2018: 310,051

Munster SHC
Total: 237,156
Average: 23,716

Final; Limerick v Tipperary, LIT Gaelic Grounds, 30th June

Leinster SHC
Total: 92,386
Average: 9,239

Final; Kilkenny v Wexford, Croke Park, 30th June

Hurling round robin attendances 2018
Munster SHC

Total: 203,664
Average: 20.366

Final: Cork v Clare, Thurles – 45,363

Leinster SHC
Total: 106,387
Average: 10,639

Montys return

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122008109#Comment_122008109

OK I may have worded it a bit strongly, they were very, very likely to progress. They just needed to lose by less than 6 to Waterford or the other game to not be a draw but as you say that nearly happened. Dead rubbers, eh?

What you say about Westmeath is exactly my problem with your earlier statements. The context is the last two years Wexford have lost and drawn with Westmeath in the Championship which is really poor. It's a sign of the weakness of the championship vs Munster in my opinion.

I will say though, what you said about Tipp was what many said about Wexford in 2019. That they only won one game against Carlow in the round Robin. The reality was that none of Galway, Dublin or Kilkenny could beat them and they were well worth winning Leinster in the end.

In the old format, I would have been slower to get rid of the Provincials. But the round Robin provinces make no sense to me.

terryrogers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122008484#Comment_122008484

Correct, Tipp were very likely to progress, so that game very much had a dead rubber feeling going into it. There have been dead rubber last round games every other year in Munster too, both at the top and bottom, e.g. Limerick have held back in their final round game only to show their real hand in the Munster final on more than one occasion.

So in response to the earlier posters claims that Munster has more jeopardy / every loss can be a knockout blow... The above proves this to be totally untrue. In fact Wexford are the only top level team that have faced real jeopardy in the round robin since its inception.

I feel like we're two bald men fighting over a comb though, as we are both agreed on the bigger picture, i.e. the provincial championships have no real value anymore. It's not Leinster that needs to be fixed, the whole championship does.

Montys return

I will happily agree with you there

evolvingtipperary101

https://x.com/AdamMoynihan/status/1778715873793945972

https://x.com/PCarrollSport/status/1778750881804030037

…

letsseehere14

Pretty sure there has been something to play for every year in the final round of the Munster round robin. Munster is a little different to Leinster now the last 2 years as it has an uneven number of teams and one team finishes a round early, that Team may have had something to play for in their final round but not the actual final round. When Leinster had 5 in the RR they always made sure the weakest team finished first and didnt play the final round.

In 2018 Tipp had something to play for in their final round, a win against Clare would have sent them through. On the final day had Limerick beaten Clare it would have meant a Cork v Limerick Munster final. Had Waterford beaten Cork, which they nearly did, it would have meant a Limerick v Clare Munster final.

In 2019 people forget that Limerick thought they had to win against Tipp to make the Munster final as the feeling was Cork would have too much for Clare who needed a big points difference turn around to get 3rd. As it transpired Limerick lost and thought it was 3rd place until it was seen that Clare beat Cork. Clare needed 3 more goals to turn the goal difference around but still, 2nd 3rd and 4th all finished on 4 points and Clare only lost out on points difference. In fact had Limerick beaten Tipp it would have been Cork who were eliminated on head to head with Clare!

In 2022, about 10 minutes into the final round of games I believe Tipperary were in the position to advance on points difference. They didnt but it was still possible that any of Cork, Waterford or Tipp to advance in that 3rd spot.

In 2023 at different points in the last round of games I believe all 3 of Tipp Cork and Limerick were in the 2nd 3rd and 4th places with Limerick eventually taking 2nd, Tipp 3rd and Cork were knocked out.

So its clear that Munster has given us exciting final round games.

People are slow to change the Munster championship because it is giving us the biggest crowds, the most exciting games and barring maybe the final round of the 2019 Leinster RR, the most exciting final rounds also. The quarter finals are not promoted by the GAA, they happen, they are not events, so its basically the Munster championship plus the 3 games that are the semi finals and final and hopefully the odd good Leinster game.

The Leinster championship is whats wrong at the moment and any suggestion to make it more competitive or add in some danger to the top sides in it is welcome. People talk about there being no relegation in Munster, as if Galway or Kilkenny have any threat of relegation, seriously.

2 groups of 4 add a little more danger as if say Kilkenny are in the group with Wexford or Galway they could easily finish 2nd in that then have to play an actual knockout quarter final. If a team loses the semi final they are then into knockout all Ireland series. It adds a slight layer of danger that will require the teams to have to be closer to 100% earlier.

This idea that Kilkenny or Galway are in danger of relegation where as the Munster teams arent is a joke, Kilkenny would have had to lose to Wexford Antrim and Westmeath last year to get relegated. Waterford lost to Limerick by 2 points and bet Tipp last year and people think they should be relegated?

terryrogers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010481#Comment_122010481

I don't think anyone suggested Kilkenny or Galway have been in danger of relegation have they? They haven't been, because they've been the top 2 teams generally in their province. Similarly, Limerick & Clare have generally dominated their province in round robins and both have had a cushion from bottom place also.

Let's remove the two dominant teams in each province for a minute... Wexford (who have repeatedly beaten/drawn with both Kilkenny and Galway in round robins by the way) were a whisker away from relegation last year, whereas Waterford (who have won just 2 games out of 16 in round robins, one of which was a last round dead rubber game for them) get away scott free year in, year out. How can people seriously suggest there is more danger in Munster?

Waterford have been abysmal in the last few years by any barometer, and their league form this year would suggest another drubbing is on the cards for them in Munster. What happens if they go another 3 years on the same trajectory? Which is very possible... Will there be calls in Munster then to cut it down to 4 teams in order to preserve its competitiveness?

I don't mean to pick on Waterford but just highlighting that the attitude of 'preserve the Munster championship and screw everyone else' is not doing anything for the greater good in hurling. And not least for the sixth county in Munster.

Iecrawfc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122012118#Comment_122012118

Difference is Waterford give the other teams tough games, for instance Limerick struggled over them last year, would limerick vs westmeath/antrim/dublin/Wexford be as competitive?

Butterbeans

But the point is is that if you want any meaningful change to address an imbalance in the Leinster Championship, the Munster Championship has to be open to change to, be it the provincials being scrapped for an open draw system (maybe the provincials be kept seperate, although not sure where they'd fit in) or something similar.

Currently it's "We want change.....but not if it affects us!"

PTH2009

Use a knockout Provincial championship as seeding for an 'open draw'

Sure they'll think up a structure

Would be a real 'All Ireland competition' Wexford going to Cork, Limerick going to Kilkenny, Waterford to Galway etc

evolvingtipperary101

Anybody who thinks the Munster championship is changing is in Lalaland. It's one of the biggest revenues in the GAA. That would be the GAA cutting off it's own head. Never going to happen. Jarlath Burns has already dismissed the idea of changing provincials in football, never mind hurling. And he's right. It's up to each province to make their provinces work. Basically what their saying is, if our province doesn't work, nobody else's can. There's absolutely no reason why they can't make it work if they truly let their egos go and genuinely help the other counties. Future of the game in Leinster depends upon it. The struggle Galway had to get their minors games in Leinster has created bad blood that's still not right. Hence, why Galway want out of Leinster. The ridiculous systems currently in operation in the schools game (schools of a thousand students streamlining county minors and under 20s means it's not a genuine competition at all because there is no competition for schools of a thousand students), causing huge discrepancies in the schools game. Major problems being caused by a few counties, who don't want to see other counties develop despite the state of the game in their province. It badly needs regrading and strict rules on the number of county players per panel at schools level. There's very little hope of the game growing if there is no diversity of winner or no chance for a carlow school or an offaly school or a westmeath school to compete.

In 2023, 933 students sat the Leaving Certificate state exam in Offaly in eleven secondary schools across the county. That's the attendance of a single school in Kilkenny. Zero chance of bonding or a team environment for a combined school. Combined schools just erode identities. A bad job all round.

Clareman

Stop the bickering or else bans will be handed out

Charlie69

Thanks for proving my point 😁