Dublin ranked as second worst city in the world for traveling by car

Beta Ray Bill

I suppose it's something that anyone that lives in Dublin is aware of, I heard this in the news last week but didn't see a thread on boards.

The traffic is absolutely mental. (At nearly all times of the day and everywhere, not just inside the canals)

The report is detailed here: https://www.tomtom.com/traffic-index/ranking/

For me the interesting things are, if you click on the "Europe" radio button, the top 10 cities all have good rail public transport systems, with the exception of Dublin.

The Congestion level % and Time lost are also unusually high for Dublin.

There was lots of pieces on this on Newstalk over the Wednesday. And there seemed to be consensus on a few points made by the various bodies, politicians, contributors and presenters etc.

BusConnects has been far to slow and has not delivered what it promised. It's going on since 2018 at this stage and nothing meaningful has been delivered. If anything, things have gotten worse. shortage of drivers, slower service along with ghost buses and the max ability of moving just 3000 people per direction per hour on the "Spines" is just not going to be enough.

The number of cars crossing the canals into the city has been in decline since 2006, with no explanation as to why traffic is worse now than what it was, despite there being less cars. The CSO reports have shown the ratio of people walking, cycling, using public transport and driving has remained roughly the same over the last few years. And because of this, it's felt that a Congestion charge will have 0 effect, people will just pay it (as they do in London).

There is a strong belief amoung motorists that the Green Party are to blame for the congestion in Dublin. Many blaming one way systems, cycle lanes, stupid speed limits, etc. Some are claiming that Green Party's modus operandi is to make as many drivers as miserable as they possibly can. I don't think this is true although they do wish to encourage people not to use their cars.

I heard the word "Metro" about 40 or 50 times. It's 20 years to late, and in my mind given the cost, planning problems along with a whole host of other issues, is VERY likely to be pushed back after the election this year. (If it happens this year).

Another thing that came up many times, was that Dublin needs a directly elected Mayor with power and control over accessibility, culture, planning and safety. I'd be behind this to a degree. But then again we already had an unelected city manager (Owen Keegan) who did try to make changes. That being said he was deeply unpopular.

My own belief is that the traffic situation in Dublin at the moment is ridiculous, we are not a mega city but we have mega city problems because of lack of investment, planning and skills. I avoid driving a car into Dublin at all costs and favour the motorcycle or public transport. I predict in the next 5 years Dublin will top the list with so many apartments and houses being built with no supporting infra.

alentejo

I think the main reason why less cars and slower journey times is the traffic light sequences and the inclusion of pedestrian phases in light sequences.

I think this slows all traffic down including public transport.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058331379/dublin-ranked-as-second-worst-city-in-the-world-for-traveling-by-car

Good post.

I think one problem is that it's way faster to drive than take the bus. So there's no incentive to not drive.

It's interesting that there's less cars entering the city (despite a rising population) but traffic congestion is worse. Is there a reason for this?

There's lots of good projects on the way like Metro, Dart+, Busconnects, Finglas Luas etc but in reality we're going to be relying on buses to do most of the heavy lifting for decades and decades.

So right now the only solution is to incentivise buses and bikes and de-incentivise cars. Also improve infrastructure for both.

I think Vienna (I know everyone goes on about there) has an annual ticket for €365 that covers all public transport in the city like buses, trams, Metro etc. Maybe we could do something like that once Bus Connects is near completion as a promotion.

Also incentivise Hybrid working as much as possible with tax breaks or something.

Maybe more park and rides might help but apparently they're not too popular.

You're right it's only going to get worse. Dublin County's population is rising about 18,000 a year.

I wonder what impact self driving buses would have, assuming they'll be viable within 10 years.

Could we just have loads of self driving buses and ban cars inside the canal.

The buses will be electric also so very cheap to run. Can charge at night with surplus wind energy.

Beta Ray Bill

@orangerhyme

It's interesting that there's less cars entering the city (despite a rising population) but traffic congestion is worse. Is there a reason for this?

This is the million dollar question... Part of me believes it poor junction design, the other part of me believes there's a stack of people out there that just cannot drive a car and really shouldn't be driving, I think the driving test has been to easy to pass the last 10 years.

Heres' the canal cordon report:

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/NTA-Canal-Cordon-Report-2022-Final.pdf

Print of the traffic graph

Like the cars are down nearly 18,000

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618957#Comment_121618957

Is traffic congestion definitely worse? Is there data on that?

One factor not included is that the population between the canals is rising every year. By 2 or 3000 I think.

We assume these people don't have cars or leave the car at home and walk but I bet they don't.

Apparently also traffic is fine when schools out in the summer so that's definitely one area to improve somehow.

SharkMX

I dont know who makes those studies.

Ive been driving in plenty of cities where it was far worse than Dublin.

Dublin is bad though, but only because of the lack of proper alternatives.

Liam O

I would think it's obvious that they have prioritised bus lanes over the other traffic lanes and there is now fewer lanes for cars carrying the normal single occupant.

As it should be.

No mention of how much safer the roads are now to a few years ago even if that is now declining again.

StreetLight

The advantage of the few bus lanes that have been created at the expense of general traffic is negated by the fact that buses are still subject to the same slow sequences of traffic lights, which are skewed in favour of pedestrians and cyclists.

Put simply, buses now reach red lights sooner to sit at them longer.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619337#Comment_121619337

I never drive from my house to the city centre as the bus is much quicker.

StreetLight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619351#Comment_121619351

Lucky you, so.

orangerhyme

Really the only solution is a proper Metro.

Copenhagen has built 4 since 2002 and are planning a 5th right now.

That should be the benchmark, constantly expanding the Metro.

The forthcoming Metro should be extended to Donabate and Sandyford at both ends. The next line should be from Tallaght to Poolbeg Peninsula or else to somewhere in the NE.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619043#Comment_121619043

I think the motorway network is the contributing factor to reducing road deaths.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619337#Comment_121619337

You could be correct and about traffic light. Some of the sequences are terrible. Traffic management is perfectly fitted task for AI, it could easily mange it.

Buses are always gonna be slow. The newer buses don't have big engines. and are slow to accelerate, roundabouts are a night mare for them. The bus stops are to close together. unloading and loading passengers at busy times of the day is very slow

As mentioned the max a fully service bus connect corridor/spine is 3000 people per hour per direction. In contrast to that, the Metro will be able to handle 20,000 per hour.

zell12

I could've sworn Conor Skehan says Dublin is No1 for congestion in the world

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/down-to-business/conor-skehan-on-making-dublin-a-nicer-place-to-live

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619421#Comment_121619421

If we had more Metro lines, then we could have orbital routes feeding into them.

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619466#Comment_121619466

I'm just back from a vacation in the Philipines, and visited three cities, Butuan, Cebu and Davao.

Each of them are worse (for car traffic) that Dublin.

A car trip (from Butuan to Davao) same distance as Dublin to Cork takes six hours.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619358#Comment_121619358

So that's the "pedestrians & cyclists slow down buses" theory out the window. Biggest problem for buses is cars blocking the bus lanes.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619337#Comment_121619337

What lights are skewed in favour of cyclists?

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619337#Comment_121619337

I've never seen traffic light sequences skewed in favour of either pedestrians or cyclists. They're skewed against buses though. The gap in traffic created when cars pull away quickly, while the bus pulls away slowly, usually triggers a red light for the bus.

bk

Interestingly Amsterdam has some of the lowest levels of traffic congestion!

It turns out give people how quality cycling infrastructure, buses, trams and Metros and they choose to use it and results in freeing up space for cars!

It is really something that folks who complain about space being given up to bus lanes and cycle lanes should remember, it is reducing traffic congestion.

Also the same sort of high quality engineering and planing that goes into building their cycle lanes, also goes into their road planning too. Lots of one way streets and traffic calming measures actually turn out to improve traffic flow and congestion.

Strumms

“Don’t use your car” we are told but we are light years away from any required significant improvements in the public transportation network..

Population growing exponentially and that’s going to continue as committed to and confirmed by Leo & co. as while there maybe a public will or want to curtail it, there is zero political mainstream movement or actual action to curtail it, so when eventually we get the likes of a metro, it’s going to be at close to or at capacity for much of the day… from day 1 of operations.

the only solution would be IF they’d had the foresight / money to build two lines in reasonably close timeframe to one another….

Now, there is only one line planned ‘Metrolink’…. Nothing active is in the pipeline for Metro West or Metro South… decades away if they ever get built…

an absolute dive of a country now… come in one and all but no services being enabled for the current population let alone those arriving and the population increasing at the rate it is…..

spend time in Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Manchester, Madrid etc,.. witness brilliant, well thought out, responsibly planned and effectively integrated public transport…

then…. Dublin 😵‍💫🙄🤷🏻

further absurd absolute gridlock awaits 😵‍💫

StreetLight

Seriously? No one has noticed the small signal clusters on traffic light poles that give cyclists a few seconds head-start green on traffic? And pedestrian phases taking noticeably longer? This is what I call skewing in favour of cyclists and pedestrians.

I'm not complaining about it, by the way. But it's coming at a cost for buses as they are lumped in with general traffic which is being held back at lights for longer. A notable exception in Dublin city centre is the eastbound junction on north quays with Queen Street where cyclists and buses both get several seconds of a head-start green light.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618957#Comment_121618957

It doesnt include the cars starting and ending their journeys within the canals.

Loads more apartments within the canals since 2006, espeically in the Docklands/Liberties/Heuston areas.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620286#Comment_121620286

The flashing amber lights at pedestrian crossings may as well be done away with as few cars take any notice of them.

We also need dedicated protest routes, so that the Luas and Bus networks dont get shut down every Saturday afternoon to facilitate a protest, meaning everyone that can just avoids public transport and drives instead.

angel eyes 2012

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058331379/dublin-ranked-as-second-worst-city-in-the-world-for-traveling-by-car

The Green Party along with Dublin City Council are absolutely to blame for the congestion. Closing lanes to motorists, making the bus lanes along the quays 24 hours, closing Capel Street, stopping motorists drive through College Green, those ugly bollards on Church Street, Fairview etc.

Of course, all these measures are going to cause congestion, was this not obvious?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620450#Comment_121620450

Amsterdam does all these sort of measures and far more, yet has much lower levels of congestion.

All those people cycling in the cycle lane and sitting in those buses are less car congestion. Logically the more people who leave their car behind, the less congestion there is.

Remember if you are sitting in a car, you are the car congestion.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620450#Comment_121620450

The 24 bus lanes on the quays that allow the 5000 people on buses move quicker than the 500 people in cars? I think that's fairly acceptable congestion considering it moves more people more quickly. Bollards don't cause congestion, they (generally poorly) stop drivers breaking the law.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620286#Comment_121620286

I've noticed them in many places, though not generally in Dublin. Though I basically never drive there. I don't think they are remotely the norm in Dublin, at least yet?

In terms of bus congestion, I don't think it is included in these figures, but obviously as much priority as possible should be given to them and yes there are far too many places still where they get stuck in private car congestion.

angel eyes 2012

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121621159#Comment_121621159

I'm not arguing the merits or otherwise of these delays, you stated yourself that the 24 hour bus lanes cause congestion. I was merely providing the main reasons for the congestion.

The bollards do cause congestion. On the top of Church Street before Constitution Hill, before Covid, it was possible for three lanes of traffic to queue before the lights, where traffic turning left could easily filter to the left. Now it's only possible for two lanes resulting in...yes congestion.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620485#Comment_121620485

Amsterdam has an underground system.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620286#Comment_121620286

What I don't like about the pedestrian traffic lights that usually there's one phase for all directions while in other European countries usually there are more pedestrian phases, based on a phase for other traffic. This is mostly because there aren't that many wide roads and big junction here and it's less common to have a few lanes splitting by direction at an approach to the junctions. This results to pedestrians needing to wait longer. I noticed after covid Dublin centre has either more often or longer pedestrian greens. This is good, except that we also need that bus cyclists and buses. We're still too good to cars coming to town. There are too many private parking garages in town.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619497#Comment_121619497

I think that's a completely different kettle of fish, those places are more geared towards motorcycles than cars

The reason the intercity journey was so long is because they have no motorways over there. Dub to Cork is at least 4 hours 30 mins not using the motorway.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620286#Comment_121620286

They are an absolute nuisance, poor design idea that does indeed favour cyclists. They're all over the Grand Canal or where there is a segregated cycle lane that intersects with a road. They are necessary though as a properly segregated cycle lane is better for motorists and cyclists (See Baldoyle to Portmarnock). It think it's the volume of intersections that's the issue... again design.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620450#Comment_121620450

Richard Guiney (CEO of Dublin Town) himself said that the pedestrianisation of Capel Street has presented many challenges. He said less and less people are availing of "services" in the city centre and are ordering online or going to there local M50 Shopping centre. And in addition to that, he said if a congestion charge was to be introduced that it should include places likes Liffey Valley, Blanch, Dundrum, Pavilions, etc.

In relation to College Green and the Quays, these are Bus Corridors now and during Rush hour they are absolutely jammed with buses. Like there is very little in the way of additional capacity for busses in those areas. I crossed the loop line bridge on the DART on the way home last night and roads are awash with a sea of yellow....

I think its a myth that cars hold up buses... I think buses hold up buses more than anything else. They are slow, inefficient but most importantly they're cheap relative to Rail.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121621598#Comment_121621598

Yes and we don't, so until we do, we have to give more road space to buses, bikes and trams.

Not that Amsterdam doesn't give the majority of road space to bikes and trams too, despite their Metro, because they definitely do. In fact they are increasingly pedestrianising streets, removing on street parking, etc.

In fact they are currently busy ripping up city center motorways and converting to parks, etc.

Thelonious Monk

It's funny that people think a Metro will be the solution to all our traffic problems. One line will help alright but there will still be far too many cars driving everywhere. I think the main problem is people taking their car out when they don't actually need to, but that's a cultural/lifestyle thing and I'm not sure how that would ever be changed, the cul de sac I live in is about 400 meters from a strip of shops and I always see some of my neighbours flying down in the car instead of walking.

Beta Ray Bill

@bk

Amsterdam and Rotterdam are better because they're planned cities. You can easily see that from the maps, all the roads and streets are straight and equal distance apart. Someone designed that, and did a very good job. Nearly the whole lot was built on reclaimed land so they weren't gonna f**K it up with stupid designs and the "That'll be grand attitude" we have here

It s far cry from the narrowing/widening and winding streets of Dublin.

It's also flat which if perfect for cycling.

I'm of the understanding also that the city design is quite distributed with relation to business placement, with the idea being that people going to work aren't all going to one small area. (I could be wrong though)

erlichbachman

Well whadda ya know, its impossible to get anywhere around Dublin without being stuck in a jam, and yet the solution is to narrow roads further, and maybe even pedestrianize more areas of Dublin, its almost like the end goal is to have everyone walk, ergo no more traffic jams. Decision makers are truly incompetent.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620286#Comment_121620286

As a motorists I find the early green for cyclists great. Gets them clear from the ASL, particularly when they're shoaling or grouped. Means cars can take off in a timely manner without waiting for cyclists to ungroup & sort themselves out into single or double file in the bike lane with the faster ones ahead.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121622535#Comment_121622535

i get around dublin all the time and jams aren't a problem, key is not to use a car unless you have to. having everyone walk, or having more people walking instead of driving would be great yes, that's why they're improving footpaths and light sequences etc. in favour of pedestrians.

erlichbachman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121622590#Comment_121622590

That’s fantastic, so we are going to be able to walk short distances, but having a city which can be navigated by car is just too much to ask, that “key” you mention is maybe only suitable to a minority of people, those that don’t actually have to get around the city.

Just one question, aside from the m50, when was the last time anything was actually done to improve the traffic situation in Dublin for driving a car?

danfrancisco83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121622447#Comment_121622447

The key is to make public transport a better option than the car, I think we are getting there. I used to drive to work from Dunboyne to Holles Street area, took about 1 hour leaving the house at 9.15ish. I tried the 70 bus and it was (still is) a disaster. The bus takes about 70mins to get to Merrion Row, so I got back in the car.

But since the 90min fare came in, now I can do a short hop on the bus to the train station (5mins), train flies into Connolly in about 26mins, then hop on a Dart from there to Pearse which only takes 10mins, all for 2 quid. I wouldn't dream of driving into Dublin in the morning now.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121622698#Comment_121622698

it kind of is too much to ask, cars are the most inefficient form of transport out there so we should focus only on making every other alternative a better option

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121622321#Comment_121622321

Richard Guiney (CEO of Dublin Town) himself said that the pedestrianisation of Capel Street has presented many challenges. He said less and less people are availing of "services" in the city centre and are ordering online or going to there local M50 Shopping centre. 

That's as may be, but business owners are notorious for vastly overestimating the volume of customers who arrive by car. The parking on Capel street was predominantly used by shopowners on the street. No one in their right mind drove to shop on Capel St expecting to park there. Frankly, I don't believe him.

Liffey Valley at least have introduced parking charges. I don't disagree with the general idea of them not being able to avail of free parking.

Buses hold up buses because buses bunch because of intermittent congestion where they share the road with cars. You need end-to-end bus priority or bunching is inevitable.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121622718#Comment_121622718

The 90 min fare is a long overdue godsend for public transport. I'm not sure people in general realise it exists enough sometimes.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121622476#Comment_121622476

Rotterdam is a planned city because it was completely razed in WW2. Not sure that's a great planning technique for Dublin...

Also, in the Netherlands in general, congestion in cities is not bad cause no one drives in them. Congestion on the motorways can be horrendous.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121622777#Comment_121622777

to be fair, most of suburban Dublin was built 1950 onwards, pretty much everywhere outside the canals, i was looking at pictures from the 1950s of where I grew up in Artane taken from the sky recently and it was all farms, with some of the estates starting to be built. We had a blank canvas just like Rotterdam but didn't plan very well, but then we seemed to be and still kind of seem to be unable to accept urban living and apartments etc. Semi-Ds all the way.

Beta Ray Bill

@Podge_irl

Buses hold up buses because buses bunch because of intermittent congestion where they share the road with cars. You need end-to-end bus priority or bunching is inevitable.

But this is not possible to fix. If a car needs to turn left or a bus needs to turn right they're going to intersect. There is no fix for this. Banning car from roads is not a solution.

Buses are good in small capacity, they provide handy transport short distances. but bunching a heap of them up together on a road is a disaster. If one has to stop all the buses behind it have to stop if there is no layby (Which there isn't in most places)

bk

Yes, take cars off the road and you don't have congestion.

I don't think people understand the scale of the problem. Our population is growing quickly. In the last 20 years alone, 1 million extra cars were added in Ireland!

If everyone who lived and worked in Dublin brought their car, it would be chaos. Traffic literary wouldn't move for hours. Depending and which survey you look at, only 20 to 25% of people get into Dublin City by car, the other 75 to 80% get in by walking, cycling or public traffic.

Now imagine is all those people decided to drive instead! It just wouldn't work.

And the population of the GDA is estimated to increase by another 500,000 over the next 20 years. Now imagine they all decided to drive.

The reality is a city like Dublin simply can't use cars, it is a pure maths problem, there simply isn't the space on the roads and the parking to fit everyone driving. You literally can't fit them all.

The only solution to this problem is to encourage people out of their cars and into more efficient forms of transport. Walking, cycling, public transport.

There really isn't any alternative. Not doing this will simply mean congestion will get worse and worse.

erlichbachman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121622753#Comment_121622753

But the focus is on making it the only form of transport, by neglect. There are other needs to consider, not just of those who have no great necessity to get around the city.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121622857#Comment_121622857

well you'll either have to deal with horrible traffic all the time and make peace with it or find another way to get around, traffic is only going to get worse and worse as the population increases

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121622411#Comment_121622411

You cant make those pedestrian changes (which I would love to see also) until you have a viable alternative to bring people to/from the city centre.

An Underground is the real solution obviously, but that is a decades away (decades away from an intergrated system, not just a single line)

In the meantime, we dont have any major plans in progress to develop the tram sysytem (tiny Green Line extension to Finglas - big deal) the BusConnects network is hamstrung by lack of drivers and lack of road space, (which could help make bus travel preferable to car journeys) but this wont be achieved because the car lobby is too strong.

The roads will never be significantly prioritised to buses in Ireland. We have to accept that and quit with the "what ifs"

The cherry on top is the constant protests in Dublin every Saturday now have rendered the Luas and some bus journeys unusable, so we have a major disincentive to use the limited public transport that we do have.

Underground is really the only way to go, then we can embark on the major public realm/pedestrian improvments, which I would totally love to see also.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121622832#Comment_121622832

It is possible to mitigate, the problem is that it is not popular. The best example I can think of being coming off the M1 at Whitehall. They had to put barriers up along the whole way to stop the bus lane becoming the defacto left turn lane. It causes a bit more congestion for cars, but the buses going into town are no longer having to wait multiple light cycles to get through. Where cars and buses have to share roadspace you just have to give the bus priority for as much as possible. The difference between a 10m left turn lane and a 50m left turn lane could be multiple light cycles for the bus.

Liam O

Do people really expect to be able to sail through a city centre in a car? In any country?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121622832#Comment_121622832

Nearly very city I've been in abroad has a high capacity bus network. I'm not sure what you are talking about here.