Who to vote for to massively improve public transport?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660119#Comment_121660119

While of course we need Metrolink, etc. buses can work well. I live in an area served only by bus and it is actually superior to DART in my area (though perhaps not Luas). I'm served by multiple busy bus corridors, so high frequency and a decent QBC into town.

Of course this requires high frequency, like a bus every 3 minutes and quick journey time and I know many areas don't have it, but areas like mine that do it actually works quiet well.

I'm not sure what you are talking about with DART, the contract for the new DART fleet has been awarded, with the new trains expected to start entering service next year.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121659961#Comment_121659961

You also said;

Cyclists don't use them a lot of the time anyway. They are the most pointless endeavor as they help no one.

which is nonsense, on both counts.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660007#Comment_121660007

Are the current Luas P&R car parks oversubscribed?

gossamerfabric

are you assuming everyone is aiming to take only the 2 Luas lines? You're question is as usual removed from communting reality for those commuting in to and through the city.

bk

For those of us living in some areas of Dublin, there really have been some major improvements in public transport over the last 5 years or so. For instance for me:

• I now have not one, but two 24/7 bus services, running all night. Get home for just €2
• An orbital route operating 24/7 that gets me almost door to door (small walk) from my home to my workplace. A trip before this orbital route started that would have involved a bus into town and back out, taking about 5 times longer!
• €2 90 minute fare is simply fantastic value for money.
• The road widening at the Cat and Cage took at least 10 to 20 minutes off my journey time into town.
• Significant improvements in off peak and weekend frequency, making it easier to get around the city at non work hours.

And this is only the early days of the BusConnects project, a lot more to come to the rest of the city as the new network is rolled out and the infrastructure work is done.

Elsewhere 41 new ICR carriages will arrive to help increase the capacity and frequency of the rail network.

DART+ project underway with 185 new DART carriages ordered for delivery starting next year.

The local link bus services have been a big success in improving public transport in rural Ireland. Cork getting Double Decker buses and higher frequency has really improved the service there.

Metrolink making it's way through ABP.

I realise folks are frustrated by the slow pace of these improvements, me too. But they are happening.

The thing is I don't see any other party offering an alternatives. And my concern is another party might consider cancelling some of the above projects, in particular Metrolink.

The trouble is, politicians and political parties are far from experts on public transport and urban planning. The experts are the folks in TII, NTA, DoT, etc.

They create plans like the National Development Plan, which frankly is a good plan, we just need to execute on it. Get it done and not have more delays and plans and talking by stupid politicians.

I won't support any political party unless they come out and say they fully support the National Development Plan and guarantee that it will all happen.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660152#Comment_121660152

Well a Green Party member is currently the minister of transport and has been progressing the three largest public transport projects in the history of the state!

Metrolink, Dart+ and BusConnets are MASSIVE projects. And yes they are and will take many years to delvier. That is the thing about big infrastructure projects, they need to span multiple governments. Yes, the above projects started out as FFG projects, but they continue under a Green ministers stewardship.

And eys I'm not happy with everything he has said and done, but frankly he is better then any other politician if your care about public transport.

gossamerfabric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660101#Comment_121660101

The rate of adoption of e-scooters which are a personal mobility solution would suggest otherwise so a partial quick fix is available.

I was roaming around a Spanish City last week where the shared scooters are banned and privately owned e-scooters were zooming absolutely everywhere...ridden considerately and the majority were wearing their helmets.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660269#Comment_121660269

You said that we didn't have enough P&R spaces for Luas users. I'm simply asking if the existing spaces are oversubscribed.

It sounds like you don't know.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660152#Comment_121660152

I can't stand the greens, for their generally rightwing stance, eg bailing out the banks and insisting that diesel cars and mercury-filled lightbulbs were going to solve all of our environmental probelms. But in fairness to them they only joined the government in 2007 when the **** had already hit the fan only we hadn't noticed it yet. They had no money to spend and anyway Frau Merkel had decided that the Irish taxpayer needed to pay for the dodgy deals that some of Germany's biggest banks had carried out in the IFSC.

gossamerfabric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660509#Comment_121660509

God, you are deliberately obtuse. You know there are not enough light and mid level transport solutions in Dublin yet you are asking if there are enough P&R spaces on the few that we have. Asking whether the wholly inadequate supply of P&R location limited spaces are oversubscribed is an idiotic question.

There is a reason why posters give you short shrift on this forum.

You always use the same strategies to undermine and divert discussion. You are an absolute scourge to the collective. No wonder posters are abandoning the platform

BTW In Amsterdam there is a website which tells you how many free spaces are at the P&R car parks...and in my city as well.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660661#Comment_121660661

So you don't know if the current Luas P&R spaces are oversubscribed, that's what I've thought. I've never seen the car parks at Sandyford or Stillorgan stops full, though I wouldn't often be there at rush hour.

So I'm not convinced that we need more Luas P&R spaces on this side of the city anyway, unless anyone has better information.

monument

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660661#Comment_121660661

Play the ball and not the man. Read the charter before posting again.

-- moderator

gossamerfabric

This is tiring. Few will drive on a clogged M50 from Blanchardstown or Finglas to park their car at a P&R on the M4 just to fill up a parking lot which maz be full by the time they arrive to use a tram which departs from the M4/M50 interchange. Do you understand how idiotic it is to labour over this point and do you appreciate(I think you know exactly what you are doing) that you are diverting discussion

gossamerfabric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660827#Comment_121660827

Familiarize yourself with the methods by which Trolls troll and steer conversation. I am out of this discussion now which was AndrewJRenko's intent anyhow.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660836#Comment_121660836

I'm asking you specifically about Luas P&R which you raised. You seem to be diverting discussion away from that.

gossamerfabric

I am out of the discussion.

monument

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660847#Comment_121660847

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660965#Comment_121660965

Read the charger before posting. You had the cheek to clearly break the rules and accuse another poster of trolling.

Also: No more pronouncements about if you're out of the discussion or not. It's off-topic. If you don't want to respond, just move on.

-- moderator

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121659640#Comment_121659640

Cycle lanes are for cyclists, outside of city centers they are not used for commuting. Cyclists don't use them a lot of the time anyway. They are the most pointless endeavor as they help no one. We need prioritised bus routes, a luas expansion, and as you say, metro.

So the many people who cycle along the Sutton/Clonyarf promenade to and from the city each day aren't commuting?

There are cycle paths along my commute and they're shite so I generally won't use them. If they are designed with cyclists in mind then they are likely to be good. If they are designed to clear the road for people driving (as is usually the case) then they won't be used!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660007#Comment_121660007

Cars are not evil although the Greens consider them to be the bête noire. They are a component of the holistic transport solution which the helpless commuter is forced to default to as the portions of the solution which aren't personally owned by the commuter are lacking.

I presume that your perception of the Green Party's agenda is based on Facebook rants rather than what the party actually claim (and I'm not a member!). I don't think at any point the GP have claimed that cars are evil or that they want to rid the world of them or whatever other daft notions some people have. They want sustainable transport, lower traffic congestion, shorter commutes, reduced energy use and emission outputs - is that not a good thing? (points taken from the Transport Policy page on their website). Would it not be a good thing to have less traffic on the roads so that those that *need* to drive can do so more easily? Is it not a good thing that kids can safely walk and cycle to school so that parents don't need to drive them there?

As for your comparison with Amsterdam, I'm sure that you were aware that it was a car dominated society until the 70s when the people said that they had had enough of children getting killed.

However, the problem with comparing the positives in Amsterdam and the negatives here is that here there is no political will to rock the boat which makes it more difficult for us to catch up with NL. Even the introduction of a cycle lane here will cause residents groups to be up in arms citing bogus crap about the end of their lives as they know it. Just look at the muppet in Fairview who closed up business blaming the cycle path works which hadn't even started. Look at all the muppets who still think his business was harmed by the works and continue to reference him in discussions. Look at the residents objecting to Bus Connects routes because their on-street parking spot will be taken away and they don't want to have to convert part of their garden into a parking spot.

This country over the last six or seven decades made the choice to go down a different transport path compared to Amsterdam. We chose to invest heavily in roads and underfund our public transport systems. The only proper investment project in maybe a century was the Luas. Only in the last few decade or so have we started trying to improve our public transport system and despite the constant NIMBYism, it is slowly getting there.

Now which political party will continue to advance that? Definitley the GP and maybe the SDs & Lab. I'm assuming the current trio will continue as they are doing. Would a SF led government continue investing (meaningfully) in PT? I honestly doubt it.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658990#Comment_121658990

The Northern half, maybe. But it was the gobshite in chief Eamon Ryan who got the Southern portion of the Metro cancelled to placate the NIBMYs who are their "base" so to speak.

The greens don't seem to want to do anything but make everyone's lives miserable.

Alkers

As above, the greens are by far the most proactive regarding modal shift, active travel and public transport.

Eaman Ryan I am not a fan of as a transport minister due to his take on many essential roads projects but the other parties lag far behind the greens in terms of public transport commitment.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121661190#Comment_121661190

wow i thought you'd be a big supporter of the greens, who'd have thunk it. they may make your life miserable but they certainly haven't mine, i would take a bit more responsibility for your own happiness if i were you and not try to blame it on a minor partner in a coalition government.

bk

What I find interesting about this topic, after over 70 posts, no one has pointed to any parties manifesto and said, look here, they have amazing plans to improve public transport!

Clearly non of the parties really give it any thought.

For me, the only game in town is the National Development Plan (NDP), it is a good plan, put together by experts, which if delivered I believe would transform Irelands public transport. Really we just need the politicians to get out of the way and execute on it.

The only thing I want to hear from any politician or political party is: "I fully support the NDP and if in government I guarantee it will be delivered".

Anything less and they don't get my vote.

Sure, if they say something like, I fully support the NDP and want to accelerate it, building more Luas lines and start working on parts of the All Ireland Rail Strategy, then brilliant. But I don't see anything like that from any of the oppositions manifestos. Frankly they are ridiculously weak and embarrassing.

zell12

ahem https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658999/#Comment_121658999

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121661414#Comment_121661414

Note I said: "from any of the oppositions manifestos." The Green Party are in government and are thus not an opposition party.

Fair play to them though on delivering most of what they promised in their manifesto, which is why I said in the second post of this thread that the Greens are probably the most public transport supporting party.

a pilot €365 public transport annual pass modelled on the fare structure first introduced in Vienna in 2013

It is a pity they haven't delivered on this, it is a fantastic idea that would be as big a success as the €2 90 minute ticket.

It will offer free public transport for students

This hasn't happened either, though the €1 90 minute ticket for under 26's is brilliant too and personally I'm not a big support of free fares, I prefer reduced ones.

It will introduce a 'one tag' scheme for multi-leg journeys to allow users to take any number of trips in any direction on any form of local public transport for two hours after use of the Leap card.

We got 90 minutes rather than 2 hours, but still fair enough.

halfpastneverr

Green's are the only ones arsed with attempting to improve PT & they will be decimated in the next GE because of it and (mainly aulder) people's misguided opinion that they want to remove gas boilers and fires from houses and force everyone to use public transport or become a lycra wearer. FF/FG have never given a fiddlers about PT (if they did, PT wouldn't be in such a sorry state here) and SF are too afraid to have any opinion, lest it costs them votes & keeps them out of power.

I don't think PT is going to fare well in the next GE, so hopefully, at least a few more busconnects corridors get approved and start proper planning before it. I really, really doubt I'll see a Metro built in my lifetime & I'm early 40's. Would be delighted to be proved wrong on that front, obviously.

magicbastarder

the only party actually making changes in the current government are the greens. they've done more in the past few years for sustainable and public transport than FG managed in the previous 10, with a fraction of the TDs.

i was reading an irish times article a few months back; i think a miriam lord one, and an unnamed government minister was quoted (i think FG), stating 'we don't actually stand for anything' - referring to his party. the only raison d'etre FF and FG and SF have to run in election is 'we should be in charge' - there's no actual interest in changing anything, they just want to be in charge for the sake of it.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660290#Comment_121660290

Green party PR machine out in force!

The reality is that we're in the final year of the current government term and not a shovel in the ground in either the metro or Dart+. Nor has there even been any mention of any further major projects i.e. additional metro, rail, luas lines.

If the Greens really wanted these projects, they'd have made some progress by now. Reality is that they could be shelved at by the next government. The trick with major infrastructure is you must get shovels in the ground within a single government cycle or its likely never to happen. The longer something goes with no progress, the more likely it doesnt happen.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662055#Comment_121662055

I'm sorry, but that is complete nonsense!

The government can't force ABP to hurry up, they are an independent body. And if the planners don't do this right and ABP review it right, then it will end up in front of the courts which no one wants!

The government has been pouring tens if not hundreds of millions into these projects. But they are such big projects, they will realistically take a long time to plan.

Do you honestly believe Sinn Fein or Social Democrats could force it through ABP faster? How exactly?

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662172#Comment_121662172

ABP doesnt take 20+ years! It doesnt take 4-5 years either. Plenty of major projects have gone through planning in months rather than years. If a government really wanted to progress these projects, they'd have been progressed by now.

If the greens were really committed to public transport, there'd be several more metro/luas lines and other projects being queued up behind the airporr metro.

Judge them by what they do, not what they say.

To be honest, I havent seen any of the political parties advocate for more major public transport schemes, so I assume that none see it as a priority or alternatively they are afraid to bend the EUs capital spending ratios.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121661190#Comment_121661190

To be fair, no he didn't.

The southern half was cancelled because they found a sewer blocking the planned route to the surface at the Grand Canal.

That meant they'd have to go back to the drawing board design wise and start again, and rather than delay the whole project even further, they decided to curtail the route to the northern half.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662371#Comment_121662371

Still a good outcome for the Rethink Metrolink group which Ryan was supporting.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662541#Comment_121662541

This is getting a bit ridiculous.

The original Metrolink plan was cut short to Charlemont due to the sewer being found to be blocking the route. Nothing else.

Nothing to do with Ryan or any other group.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662242#Comment_121662242

If the greens were really committed to public transport, there'd be several more metro/luas lines and other projects being queued up behind the airporr metro.

Judge them by what they do, not what they say.

What you're conveniently forgetting is that the Greens are part of government, they are not the government. When they and the other parties were negotiating the PFG, they put forward their list of "demands" as did the other parties. It does not mean that they get to implement all of their demands. Ryan cannot just line up fifty metro projects as he sees fit - he needs cabinet approval for funding to get the ball rolling.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662581#Comment_121662581

The thread is about who to vote for on the grounds of what party will do most for public transport.

It's not ridiculous to point out that the current Minister for Transport was campaigning against the original Metrolink plan for the benefit of nimbys in his constituency when others are suggesting that people should vote for him and his party.

magicbastarder

i remember an interview with i think eamon gilmore, when labour were in government years ago; a somewhat smug interviewer asked him a question i think sent in by a listener; along the lines of 'well, you're in government now; are you going to apologise to the people who voted for you, for all the items on your manifesto you've clearly failed to implement?'

gilmore's response was a very robust one along the lines of 'you're basically asking me to apologise for not winning the election; yes, we had those items in our manifesto, but here's one crucial point: *we didn't win*. we can't implement every item in our manifesto if we don't win'.

so a very easy response to people claiming their are things in the green manifesto which have not been implemented - this is a reason to vote for them even more, not even less.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662661#Comment_121662661

It’s also important to be factually correct, which the earlier assertion about it by the other poster was not.

As Minister he has brought the current project through cabinet approval to where it is now - with ABP.

There’s a difference between what was said in the past and what he actually has done to be fair.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662591#Comment_121662591

What they are also conveniently forgetting is that they do not appear to have the slightest idea how planning works. You can indeed rush a crayon drawing of a metro route out quickly, but it will be eviscerated by ABP and the courts and never go anywhere. It is infuriating, but no the Metro planning could not have been done appreciably quicker by anyone. Undoubtedly there are fine margins somewhere that could have been squeezed, but the methodical nature of the planning was precisely chosen to limit the risk of JRs so that is actually gets built.

Where you can ascribe fault is in the under-resourcing of ABP itself which is certainly delaying things by a number of months at least, but that is not in the Greens remit.

There is in fact a National Development Plan, though the Greens could of course put out some pointless paper about 4 more Metro lines but it would be incredibly pointless. It is just not how government is done.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660190#Comment_121660190

They are sure are, and not a minute to soon. I sure hope they are ok, the last DARTS Alstom provided didn't work out to well. And the 85** series provide by Tokyu have seating issues (That we're stuck with for at least another 20 years). X'trapolis/Adessia platform seems ok though.

#lastminutedotcom

I do feel the Howth junction issue requires massive investment.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121659053#Comment_121659053

Independents thrive where locals feel they're not being "looked after" by a party candidate.

whisky_galore

Most parties are terrible. FF historically has been awful with public transport, FG only slightly better. Greens are only interested in their affluent urban fanbase, who are about the only ones ok with Green policies.. mainly giving people with cars a kicking and only offering a painted-on push bike lane and not attractive public transport.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121663761#Comment_121663761

Yes successive Irish governments have had an appalling track record when it has come to investing in and providing decent public transport in this country.

But I would disagree with you - FG have been appalling in the last 30-40 years when it came to investing in the railways. It has generally been FF governments who actually invested in them.

And to be fair to the Greens, the Connecting Ireland project which is currently rolling out new and enhanced regional and rural bus services all across the country was their baby.

Cookiemunster

I'll point out again that for the vast majority of the history of the state, we've basically been poor. It's only in the last 25 or so years that we've been able to afford to build things. It wouldn't have mattered if Labour, SF, the Greens or anyone else had been in government over those decades as there was no money there to build anything.

Since we got rich FF delivered LUAS and would have delivered Metro North if we hadn't had a global economic crash. FG got Metrolink, DART+ and BusConnects off the ground and into the planning process. Yes a Green minister has progressed these projects, but they would have been progressed anyway once FG were in government as they were FG policy.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121663870#Comment_121663870

hmmm... Todd Andrews was responsible for shutting down multiple railway lines in the 1950s, with the approval and support of Lemass; which changed the face of the rail network and had a massive negative impact on many parts of Ireland.

While this is now considered an 'infamous' decision- to Cookiemunsters point, in the 1950s the country was on its knees financially, there was no money to pay for it. Hard to take the long view when your backs against the wall, thats not something the electorate will reward.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121663968#Comment_121663968

Well I was really thinking of the past 30-40 years or so.

I think going back 70 years plus is a bit much at this stage!

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664006#Comment_121664006

You used the word 'historically'....

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664269#Comment_121664269

Ok well i have now edited my original post to be more explicit - in the context of who to vote for, going back 70 years is probably stretching things! :-)

Banzai600

there is no culpability here if some flake doesnt do their job, in any public department or public service role.

Tax payers money is like toilet paper to the irish government , their minions and the slobbering greedy developers, a disposable endless commodity. So we're already defeated as tax payers before you start to try change ? pessimistic , i think not.

The Gr33n twats i find infuriating, they just railroad their agendas regardless, to me they are a real " fc*k you jack, its my party" regime, they are like fanatics imo. they have a smug snigger about them constantly.

if i wanted to go to work, its around 3hrs public transport EACH WAY. Seriously who'd want that, and i live/work in Dublin. i can do the same journey by motorbike / scooter in 30 mins or so. Why not promote two wheels ? scooters etc. we dont have the weather, but you can gear up for it, easy.

the cycle lanes around the country are great in a lot of cases but its brought Dublin city cntr and suburbs traffic to a slower standstill weekedays and weekends. I know of a couple of ppl with bike lanes outside their houses on wide enough roads, both north and south city, to which there was no need, and they have cars outside their doors constantly, long queues, whereby there used to be none before the cycle lanes.

There are ppl who NEED to drive and NEED access via the city. ppl who need to cross the city are being slowly tortured and being backed into a corner as the city will eventually be off limits to cars, but with that, i hope its the sword they die on..............no commerce = no jobs and then it turns into an even worse sh1thole. But thats another argument. Its all fine for the ppl who live in and around the city cntr, stones throw travel, we'll leave them to prop up commerce so, they can have it.

Dublin is a city, but its tiny, roads / streets are tight and its not big at all end to end or side to side. you cant model it on the likes of other euro cities because they have infrastructure , metro, buses that work to timetables, rental bikes and elec scooters etc dotted all over a very wide km range that dont get stolen or vandalised by teenage scrotes who are untouchable by the law here, as they all well know.. The liberals wont let cops use batons with juveniles, cops wont tackle juveniles a they could be penalised or loose their job, great thinking isnt it. you cant even park a motorbike or scooter in the city for fear it will be stolen or you have to challenge knife and tool wielding scum.

If i cross the city cntr, i can see the buses are slow, they do create traffic, and even if the city was car free, i still wouldnt be of any benefit to get to work. and even if there were no cars on the road and i had to go public, it would take 2 hrs each way - im not buying it.

then the other looming issue, which is unavoidable, he m50. To cross the m50 it costs ppl 5e a day who have tags, thats 200 pm. its hefty. And, the m50 it not far off full capacity imo - then what ? you have dublin port metering traffic morning sand evenings at their behest, and bringing the city to a standstill. who gave them that authority, its nuts. 3 hrs either direction both mornings and evenings its a slog for ppl, taking an hr some days to do a handful of kms being stuck in their cars.....lets see how the government fix that one.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664979#Comment_121664979

did you consider distance/accessibility of your job before you took it? like personally i wouldn't go near a job that took 3 hours to get to by public transport.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664390#Comment_121664390

I know someone who still bases his votes on something Jimmy Tully did as Minister - and not the Tullymander

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664979#Comment_121664979

Public transport will never suit everyone’s commute, nor will it suit many orbital journeys due to the fact that very few orbital journeys will have the same start and end points. There is a limit to what public transport can deliver in some cases.

For some longer commutes, maybe people need to think if part of the trip can be done on public transport.

People often look at these things with an “either, or” approach when in fact a hybrid approach (part car, part public transport) can work in many cases.