Who to vote for to massively improve public transport?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664979#Comment_121664979

Which particular roads have these bike lanes and constantly long queues?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664979#Comment_121664979

The Gr33n twats i find infuriating, they just railroad their agendas regardless, to me they are a real " fc*k you jack, its my party" regime, they are like fanatics imo. they have a smug snigger about them constantly.

The Greens are a minority party in government. They don't have the authority to railroad their agendas no matter what nonsense you read on Facebook!

if i wanted to go to work, its around 3hrs public transport EACH WAY. Seriously who'd want that, and i live/work in Dublin. i can do the same journey by motorbike / scooter in 30 mins or so. Why not promote two wheels ? scooters etc. we dont have the weather, but you can gear up for it, easy.

So you wouldn't like the option of having an efficient public transport system that gets you to work and back, comfortably and cheaply?

the cycle lanes around the country are great in a lot of cases

No they're not - in the vast majority of cases, they're absolutely sh1te so I can safely assume your perception of them is not based on actually having used them!

but its brought Dublin city cntr and suburbs traffic to a slower standstill weekedays and weekends.

How exactly do cycle lanes bring the city and suburbs to a standstill?

I know of a couple of ppl with bike lanes outside their houses on wide enough roads, both north and south city, to which there was no need, and they have cars outside their doors constantly, long queues, whereby there used to be none before the cycle lanes.

Where is this?

There are ppl who NEED to drive and NEED access via the city.

There are also loads of people who choose to drive into the city but who don't need to. These drivers slow down those who need to drive in!

ppl who need to cross the city are being slowly tortured and being backed into a corner as the city will eventually be off limits to cars, but with that, i hope its the sword they die on..............no commerce = no jobs and then it turns into an even worse sh1thole. But thats another argument. Its all fine for the ppl who live in and around the city cntr, stones throw travel, we'll leave them to prop up commerce so, they can have it.

Economic armageddon because of cycle lanes? Are you high?

Dublin is a city, but its tiny, roads / streets are tight and its not big at all end to end or side to side.

I'm assuming from the rest of your waffle that cars can use these tiny & tight streets but bikes make the streets worse?

you cant model it on the likes of other euro cities because they have infrastructure , metro, buses that work to timetables, rental bikes and elec scooters etc dotted all over a very wide km range that dont get stolen or vandalised by teenage scrotes who are untouchable by the law here, as they all well know.. The liberals wont let cops use batons with juveniles, cops wont tackle juveniles a they could be penalised or loose their job, great thinking isnt it. you cant even park a motorbike or scooter in the city for fear it will be stolen or you have to challenge knife and tool wielding scum.

FFS 🙄

Out of curiosity, which party do you think will make transport better?

Tarabuses

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662371#Comment_121662371

Are they still at the drawing board or have they given up at this stage?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121666351#Comment_121666351

Metrolink is at ABP - oral hearing next month.

Tarabuses

I am well aware of how Metrolink is progressing. I assumed your "drawing board" reference was in relation to overcoming the sewer problem.

csirl

People saying the Greens have delivered Metro and Dart+ are counting their chickens. No shovel in the ground yet. Stiill procurement and funding decision gates to go through and these will be beyond the term of the current government. History tells us that no project is certain until construction commences.

Also, neither project is a Green Party initiative - they've both been around for decades.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121667222#Comment_121667222

People saying the Greens have delivered Metro and Dart+ are counting their chickens.

I don't recall anyone stating that!

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121667185#Comment_121667185

The choice was to do Metrolink as is now progressing through the planning system, or, as I said, to go back to the drawing board and start again with a new plan for Swords to Sandyford.

The decision was made that the latter would just delay things far too long, and that as a result Metrolink would be designed as Swords to Charlemont.

In the meantime, the Green Line will see increased capacity as a tram line added through further increased frequencies and a new turnback at Charlemont being added in due course. The additional trams delivered and the tram extensions added during Covid have made a real difference capacity wise.

No decision on any further Metrolink extension has been made, but being honest we need to just get started on the current plan.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121667313#Comment_121667313

Are there any plans to increase capacity on the red line? There are a lot of new apartments/houses being built along it. Also working in the IFSC I see long delays between trams regularly despite the advertised rush hour frequency. 18 minutes as an example yesterday evening. Luas twitter account said service was operating normally.

Murph_D

Getting back to the original question:

If you want the status quo on public transport, vote FF/FG (and hope for a progressive coalition partner). For potential improvement, increase the diversity of that coalition so the Greens aren't doing all the heavy lifting. For massive improvement, we need a massive increase in Green influence, which means massive willingness to compromise from the bigger parties, including SF. That could happen with more Green seats and better coordination on this issue between the Greens and the left parties. In general you'd expect the left to support public transport more, as public transport (although it benefits everyone) ultimately benefits working people most of all.

So vote Green and transfer left.

csirl

The problem with the Greens is the conflict between development and environmental concerns. Any major public transport infrastructure project is going to have an environmental impact.

The other is economics. You cannot fund multiple major transport projects unless the exchequer is in good shape. Last time the Greens were in power we had an economuc crash. While we may not technically be in recession now, the ordinary person or business owner is feeling very stretched right now - it certainly feels like a recession.

Economic ideology is also important. There are some methods of infrastructure delivery that some parties have ideological issues with e.g. PPP, concession, privately financed etc.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121668690#Comment_121668690

I would have agreed only the left is terribly fractured between Labour trying to wear FF/FG clothes and failing, the SDs, SF looking at where the wind is blowing, and the Alphabet Soup of free money for all populist parties.

Greens have annoyed so many, esp rural dwellers, that they will get annihilated in the next election. Both Labour and Greens have awful leaders who haven't endeared themselves to the public.

Murph_D

Those are all valid points and hopefully, for those of us who care deeply about environmental and sustainability issues, can be mitigated during the campaign. It certainly won't be easy.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670378#Comment_121670378

While it feels like a recession now, it definitely wasn't just a recession a while back in 2009 - that was more severe and it's called an economic depression. There are quite significant differences there.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121671331#Comment_121671331

We are currently in a technical recession. As we have had four quarters of decline, though from a very high level and still with growth, so not bad.

Everyone has PTSD from 2009, understandably, but as you say, usually recessions aren't that bad and actually a good opportunity to invest in infrastructure due to counter cyclical economics.

Tarabuses

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121667313#Comment_121667313

Since the drawing board is now lying idle wouldn't it be a better option to use it to start looking at future Metro lines. As the process takes so long it is likely that we will not see any expansion for decades. We do not have to wait for the first line to be built before thinking about the next one.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670378#Comment_121670378

Your first paragraph, 'the problem with the greens' - does not add up. The fact that a major public infrastructure project is not zero impact during construction is not a problem with the greens, or even a problem for the greens.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672120#Comment_121672120

Question - if we had a Glen of the Downs type scenario today - with an intercity rail link rather than a motorway. Would the Greens be ok with it? Or would they be chaining themselves to trees? I think it would be the later.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672154#Comment_121672154

You're obviously failing to see why there was disagreement with the motorway going through the Glen. Any large project cutting through the Glen would be a bad thing. But you clearly want a score against the Greens so which is why you present this biased A or B question.

Plus i don't think the green Party had organised for members to chain themselves in the original Glen protests but again, I don't think you really care about that because it doesn't suit your particular agenda.

devnull

My discussions with Sinn Fein people on transport matters over the year I have to say have been rather awful.

They are absolutely full of soundbites and ideas and nice sounding plans, but when you try and press them on any kind of detail of how they are going to make those things happens, they quickly start to unravel that they are just saying what they want to happen, without any kind of idea of how they will make it possible, which quickly manifests itself as people who don't know the industry and it's problems at all.

It's easy to say that we're going to have free public transport when you don't have any idea where the hundreds of millions are going to come form to pay for it (aside from the usual 'tax the rich' soundbites) and improve bus services by throwing hundreds more buses at the problem when you are not going to need to find the people to drive the buses. Soundbites alone don't improve public transport, well thought out policies do.

Then again, as LXFlyer and others have said, the likes of FG haven't covered themselves in glory through the years and the record of the Greens is at best mixed and the DoT under FF was a total shambles for many years with it simply acting as a downtown office of CIE, more interested in pleasing them than the patrons of public transport services for a long time.

It's difficult to say to me who to vote for, the more centre to centre right tend not to be supportive of public transport as we'd wish, whilst in my view the left wing parties seem to not understand policy very well and are full of soundbites based purely on ideological grounds, without understanding how they will be able to implement some of their policies as they don't understand the details, just the headline items.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672065#Comment_121672065

I think that if you get the initial one built, the public clamour for more will be unstoppable.

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672460#Comment_121672460

So on balance, Green Party is best?

Tarabuses

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121673025#Comment_121673025

It will not be possible to meet the public demand for more lines unless some plan is in place. Not in a reasonable time scale.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670476#Comment_121670476

The Single Transferable Vote means that you can give those votes without worrying too much about whether your candidate will be elected.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670476#Comment_121670476

I mean rural dwellers in massive houses that cost a fortune to heat and require you to drive absolutely everywhere were hardly voting for the greens in the first place, when their manifesto goes completely against the lifestyles of people who choose to live like that. Farmers hate them because they want to see more being done to stop them polluting.

I'd say younger people who voted green previously may not do so again as they're totally screwed for housing and want to see the back of all 3 parties currently in power.

magicbastarder

That's the thing about the greens. The reason so many people hate them is their agenda is 'we want to change the way people live' and many people have the reaction 'who the **** are you to be telling me how to live my life?'

Whereas with other parties it's basically 'whatever you want, and more of it' as an agenda.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121677909#Comment_121677909

I find that smart educated people in cities are usually in agreement that we need to move away from planning around cars. Hopefully Greens can keep a few seats.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121677989#Comment_121677989

Party for smug rich suburbanites, they consume as much if not more than the average esp if you add up their carbon from jetting off to their holiday home abroad and vote Green to feel good about themselves.

magicbastarder

you appear to have made your mind up about the average green voter!

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121677989#Comment_121677989

All this talk of wiping out the GP party seems to be forgetting that it was done before.

They were wiped out in 2011.

Not just knocked back, they had no TDs.

They still came back, and stronger.

It seems to me that they aren't your ordinary party.

The ideal and the ethos is so strong it can't be killed off.

Just on the thread title I'd say the GP have demonstrated a long term commitment to public transport so if you were basing your vote on that issue they'd be a good bet.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121678517#Comment_121678517

Smug maybe, but I've no holiday home to jet off to yet

CrabRevolution

The Greens never feature high up in my voting preferences, but the discourse about them is bizarre. We're told that the Greens are near universally reviled, and every government failure no matter where or when it happened is their fault. For good measure we're presented with a childish caricature of the "average green voter" being rich, vegan, smug, urban etc.

Yet they simultaneously promise that the greens will be wiped out in the next election. This makes little sense if the generalisations listed before are true. Those who hate the greens with every fibre of their being (which, according to the internet is 99% of the population) will never have voted for them to begin with, so those votes can't be lost. And you can't claim they've been hoodwinked by the treacherous Greens changing policies after getting elected. They are open about everything they want to impose upon the public. Are you telling me there's farmers out there who only since 2020 have discovered the Greens don't like the impact intensive meat and dairy farming have on the environment?

Then on the other hand, you have the cartoon character which they present as the typical Green voter. What will make them stop voting for the Greens, if (as is claimed) they're getting everything they want? Are vegan cyclists going to start voting for SF instead for some reason?

magicbastarder

'the greens did what we voted for them to do, and now we hate them for that'.

ArmaniJeanss

The Irish Green Party seem accepting of being in a loop of a) get enough TDs elected and be immediately willing to go into coalition b) insist on green measures as part of the coalition deal c) lose the bulk/all of their TDs in a subsequent election d) spend a term in the wilderness e) build back up to the situation where they have TDs again and quickly return to a) above. Rinse and repeat.

It's fairly refreshing within the Irish system where not stirring the pot and retaining a seat for life has generally been most politicians core aim.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121679370#Comment_121679370

Green Parties (across Europe) Modus Operandi - "You can pollute as much as you like so long as you can afford to pay for it"

#carbonoffset

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121695300#Comment_121695300

Most people seem to have issue with actually making folk pay for it though. Hence if you go into any of the threads in After Hours its folk giving out about how theres 2c being added to their Diesel

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121695300#Comment_121695300

I'm Sure Eamonn Ryan will be offsetting the 28 tonnes of carbon his jolly to Rio for St. Patrick's day will generate...

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121698915#Comment_121698915

São Paulo and Brasilia actually, and the figure quoted in yesterday’s Indo was 2.34 tonnes. Quite the exaggeration!

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704213#Comment_121704213

It's not an exaggeration at all when you actually think about it rather than just blindly accepting what the Indo said now is it?

2.34 tonnes is about what a direct flight from DUB to SAO would consume ( Economy class). 8.24 tonnes:First class direct return flight from DUB to SAO

As there's no direct flights then you have to fly from DUB to CDG first. The from CDG to SAO and back..

Add in the fact that the figures are based on Economy class, do you really think they will fly in anything less than Business class, 1st class to Brazil and back.(though Ryan can sleep in any chair).

First-class fliers, by contrast, have a carbon footprint that's as much as seven times larger than Economy class.

So, as this minister is travelling on business then he will have his advisors and possibly spouse travelling with him, so add in their carbon footprint for the same flights... at last count Ryan has around 7 advisors, plus other diplomats. Add in the large luxury cars to take them around on this South American junket and you see that 2.34 is a gross under exaggeration!

cgcsb

The current government is probably the best we've had so far , admittedly of a bad lot, in terms of public transport infrastructure in that they've funded more and better services, increased ridership to record levels and have brought 3 mega projects to construction stage (or will have by the time an election is called in 12 months).

A government composed of say Labour and Sinn Fein would abandoned this in favour of PS wages and welfare increases

a government led by FF would inherently be more focused on rural issues, helping farmers dodge tax, get grants and ignore climate targets. They aren't into public transport and would probably dismantle efforts to implement camera enforcement given that their voter base drive taxless raneg rovers and feel entitled to park wherever.

Basically your preferred government, speaking in terms of public transport only, should include the Greens, FG and perhaps the soc dems. If you sleect an independent i would suggest you think urban.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121710488#Comment_121710488

Same is true of all the St Patrick's Day ministerial trips.

If ER refused to go we'd have people saying he should resign for not doing his duty.

We have these discussions every year and nothing changes.

Ireland has decided that the trips are worthwhile, even some in opposition travel.

The airfares and emissions are part of the cost of doing business on behalf of the country.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121710488#Comment_121710488

You are dramatically overestimating the number that travel to support the Minister for effect. He may well have an advisor or two. Others travelling will have particular jobs to do.

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121710488#Comment_121710488

Well I think you are still exaggerating but at least you're trying to justify the figures now, which is good - better than your inaccurate but 'truthy' original post.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121659120#Comment_121659120

If you live in Blanchardstown now, the W4 bus goes to Tallaght, introduced under the current government following Green policies on public transport.

Chopper Dave

I was listening to Eamonn Ryan on the radio this morning - he really has no sense of urgency about him. All he was talking about was Public Hearing this and Bord Pleanala that. Even on the Airport he didn't want to give a view on the passenger cap as it was a matter for Fingal CC and Bord Pleanala (seriously he's Minister for Transport he has to have a view!).

I can't see Metro North being built without a Cabinet level champion to light a fire under every state agency that's going to need to be involved - same for any other infrastructure that is needed. The Public Transport policies are easy to draft - it's a much bigger challenge to implement them and you have to roll up your sleeves and get at it. None of the current GP Ministers strike me as being remotely capable of doing that (to be fair not many of the FF / FG do either)

Tenzor07

I was listening to Eamonn Ryan on the radio this morning - he really has no sense of urgency about him"

That sums up Ryan then really...

Watched PT last night where they had the Ryanair CEO debating the airport passenger cap, with the Greens represented by Ciaran Cuffe arguing that in a climate emergency we should reduce air travel.. As Mr. Cuffe was stood there in a freshly pressed suit live from the EU's offices in Brussels.. I guess he got there by ferry, train, bus and bicycle! (not)

Ryanair argued that the Government have had decades to either build a Metro or extend the Dart line to the airport and haven't done a thing other than spend money on consultant reports.. And RA are dead right! There's not even a dedicated Bus lane to the airport, there's no direct cycle lane either and the bicycle parking facilities in the airport are 3rd world standard...

Beta Ray Bill

@Chopper Dave

I can't see Metro North being built without a Cabinet level champion to light a fire under every state agency that's going to need to be involved

There is a way, it would be possible for Fingal County council to force the governments hand on this. If they started construction of a Metro from Swords to the Airport, Dublin Airport will then become Swords or Fingal Airport.

Fingal county council are entitled to do this, as it all falls within their jurisdiction and this part of the Metro will be far be the cheapest as it's above ground.

It would be a good solid kick up the hole for the government, like a serious one. (Metaphorically speaking) They'd be walking funny for months after it.

If either what I suggested or what you suggested doesn't happen, metro will be kicked down the road again. It's happened so many times already that it's expected to happen again.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733169#Comment_121733169

Err… that would never happen. They simply wouldn’t have the money to even start planning a metro, never mind build one!

Anyway this is all beside the point, Metrolink is happening, it is fully supported and funded by the government, the railway order has been submitted to ABP. The delay is ABP, not the government at this point.

TII are planning and building Metrolink and they have a fantastic track record of delivering major infrastructure projects on time and on budget, they built the intercity motorway network, Dublin port tunnel and Luas lines.

My only concern would be that a new government is formed which would include SF and that they would decide to cancel it before construction begins.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733279#Comment_121733279

My only concern would be that a new government is formed which would include SF and that they would decide to cancel it before construction begins.

Or some other economic crisis, like recession. Or some social crisis, like a load of skangers burning the place to the ground. Or even some global crisis like a big war.

I accept your TII point that they have a good record, but this project is huge. It is far bigger than any other project and one of the biggest projects in the history of the state (If not the biggest publicly funded project)

Last 2 huge projects in the State (Intel Fab 34, Children's Hospital, and to an extent Apple Athenry) have been as disaster. I think this make or break for huge investment projects in Ireland. They need to get it right, first time.

magicbastarder

the 'ha ha the GP TDs and ministers take planes' nonsense gets tiring. damned if they do, damned if they don't.