Who to vote for to massively improve public transport?

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733353#Comment_121733353

Only one of these projects was run by the state, unless we're doing a thing where Ireland is just innately incompetent at building large projects. This itself is also not true at all. Look at the scale of our Motorway network. Many countries couldn't dream of the quality of road infra we have in this country.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121731319#Comment_121731319

Hard to see how he doesn't have a sense of urgency, given he's been getting bollocked by many quarters due to redirecting roads funding to DART+ and Metrolink to get the projects over the line. "Lighting a fire" does nothing, cash and plenty of it does so there isn't any question surrounding a projects future. This kills big infrastructure projects, look at HS2. He's done a fine job at getting public transport progress given the limited time he has been in government and the limited degree of influence the Greens wield in government. If they get this much done with 10 TDs, imagine what they'd do with 20. If you think the current GP ministers aren't competent, I'd like an example of a Transport minister in the last 30 years who was more competent.

Chopper Dave

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733353#Comment_121733353

It's not good enough to allow a dysfunctional ABP to delay Metrolink or similar projects and that's what I was getting at. A protracted planning delay often means the economics of a project have changed by the time it is finally approved so you need to get a larger budget approved and that's where a new Government might decide to start tinkering with the route or the timetable causing further delays. ABP is part of the State - the Government can increase its resourcing, instruct it to arrive at decisions quicker, changes its priorities, etc. They are choosing not to do this.

This isn't solely an issue for Eamonn Ryan but between energy and transport projects he has more skin in the game than others in terms addressing the planning process. However, the impression he gave on the radio yesterday was that he was quite happy to defer to the planning process which means that most likely he won't be Minister if and when it is approved and therefore it will be someone else's problem.

Thelonious Monk

I think you can blame a succession of governments on ABP and how slow it is, not really fair to put this on ER when ABP's resources are probably mostly being used for the housing crisis

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733406#Comment_121733406

That's my concern.... Paddy and his sub contracting arrangement cannot deliver large projects on time or on budget.

Many EU countries have better Motorway networks than Ireland, I don't view them as mega projects (Flattening a surface and laying Tar)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733465#Comment_121733465

ABP is part of the State - the Government can increase its resourcing, instruct it to arrive at decisions quicker, changes its priorities, etc. 

Or they could scrap the thing entirely and put in place a system that works. If you've ever had to work with a civil servant, you'll understand the problem the government has with agencies like ABP.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733465#Comment_121733465

Just to be clear, the government has in fact increased the resources to ABP and they are also working on various legal reforms of ABP and the planning process.

For instance they have now setup MARA, which has taken over responsibility for the planning of offshore wind farms and other offshore infrastructure from ABP.

While ABP is part of the state, it is important to remember that the government can't just flick their fingers and change it overnight. Any change to the planning process needs to be done by introducing new legislation, with an eye to making sure said legislation doesn't contravene the constitution and would stand up to challenges in court.

Would I prefer if it happened faster, of course, but it is more complicated then many people understand.

magicbastarder

regarding the greens and the planning process, it's worth noting that one of the only previous attempts at serious planning reform in the state was a GP initiative:

https://headstuff.org/topical/the-green-party-housing-reforms/

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733353#Comment_121733353

We are already technically in a recession, normal recessions don't mean you stop building infrastructure, in fact per counter cyclical economic policy, you would increase infrastructure development during recessions. Of course if we had another 2007 style economic crisis, yes that could stop it, but that sort of crisis isn't normal, it is a more of a once in a lifetime, great depression type crisis, hopefully non of us see another one of those in our lifetimes!

And of course if that was to happen, Fingal County Council certainly won't have any money to build a Metro like you suggested!

Of course WW3 could start tomorrow or we could all be hit by a meteor, but you don't let things like that stop you from planning and building new infrastructure!

Last 2 huge projects in the State (Intel Fab 34, Children's Hospital, and to an extent Apple Athenry) have been as disaster. I think this make or break for huge investment projects in Ireland. They need to get it right, first time

The Childrens Hospital is being built by the HSE, need I say more!

I'm not sure what issue you are talking about with Intel Fab 34, it has been successfully opened!

Apple in Athenry is stupid, but it was a private project, not a state project.

The biggest state project in our history was the intercity motorway project as a whole, topping 10 billion. Metrolink will be in a similar ballpark. It is new in that it will be our first underground Metro, however we do have plenty of experience with TBM's during the port tunnel construction, etc. So not that different.

They need to get it right, first time

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Having looked at the Metrolink plans in detail, it is a very good project, well thought out project, engineered as much as possible to reduce costs and risks. I honestly can't see how it could be much better. They have also gone through exhausting rounds of public consultation and tweaking to make sure it would avoid any issues before submitting the Railway Order to ABP.

Now we just have to unfortunately wait for ABP to do their thing and probably largely rubber stamp it and then get building.

The only realistic danger I see to it, is a new SF potentially cancelling it before construction begins.

So that is what we all need to focus on, every politician that calls to your door, hound them on how important Metrolink, DART+, public transport in general are and that you will only vote for them if they guarantee to at least continue all the projects in the NDP.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733506#Comment_121733506

ABP's main problem is resourcing. We could reconfigure the planning laws to get stuff done quicker but we will essentially be back to square one again, as county councils up and down the country have to train their pllanners to adopt to this new hypothetical agency.

We will be left with the same issue of simply not having enough staff to get through all the planning permits and objections.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733506#Comment_121733506

That's my concern.... Paddy and his sub contracting arrangement cannot deliver large projects on time or on budget.

International companies with experience in tunneling and rail will build the metro. Just like international companies built the motorway network. On time and on budget.

Many EU countries have better Motorway networks than Ireland, I don't view them as mega projects (Flattening a surface and laying Tar)

Most European countries have far larger populations and have had motorway networks for decades, so they're going to have larger networks. We built a motorway network from nothing within a decade. That is a mega project.

And there's a lot more to building roads than 'flattening a surface and laying tar'. I suggest you research the building of structures like the Limerick Tunnel, the Rose Kennedy Bridge, the River Suir Bridge or the Boyne Valley Bridge. Not to mention the countless over and under bridges, standard river crossings etc.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733756#Comment_121733756

And there's a lot more to building roads than 'flattening a surface and laying tar'

That is the crooks of it though, you cut into hills and build mounds in valleys and build bridges and overpasses. Humanity has been building these kind of structures for over 100 years now. Those bridges and tunnels are not mega projects, they've been done tens thousands of times before in many different parts of the world. They're grand and all but nothing to sing and dance about.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733637#Comment_121733637

I'm not sure what issue you are talking about with Intel Fab 34, it has been successfully opened!

There is no way to know for sure (investors, share prices and what not) but the original investment was 5B, that then needed to be supplemented with another 12B. I know lads that worked on the site and said it was an absolute sh*t show, a sub contractors paradise. And even on opening day there was some remark that after Leo said Intel was committed to Ireland Pat came along straight after and said Ireland will need to compete next time (Or something along those lines). read between the lines I suppose.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Port Tunnel is a classic example of this. A mistake was made on Max truck height. Also the children's hospital ventilation systems, another expensive mistake. Luas Green line extension had a lot of mistakes, some of which have still not been fixed.

I not sure where the blame ultimately lies on these kinds of projects mind you. There ends up being so many people involved that it becomes a mess.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733353#Comment_121733353

Ardnacrusha remains the largest infrastructure project ever undertaken by the state, proportionately speaking, it took up the majority of the state's budget at the time, such was the drive to achieve some energy independence and modernisation.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733139#Comment_121733139

I understand what you mean but that's only because of how you perceive Eamon Ryan's personality, and he wouldn't exactly be my number 1 preference either. He comes across as laid back because of the way he talks and society has programmed us to make assumptions about people based on a few superficial observations, which tend to be 60%+ true and indeed may even be true in this case.

In reality though Eamon Ryan has presided over a record year of public transport ridership, a record expansion of pt services to previously unserved areas, a roll out of 24 hour urban bus services, a 2 to 1 spending ratio in favor of sustainable transport, a roll out of rapid build pedestrian and cycling infrastructure and brought 3 mega projects from concept to construction stage. This is by far the best run we've had in terms of public transport from any government we've ever had so far. Are there problems, yes sure, but there is no denying we're in a better place than ever before in terms of PT. I am also frustrated at the pace of delivery. Talking about metro north at this stage is nonsense, it's a project that fell victim to the global economic collapse it's not like it's been the same continuous project.

magicbastarder

actually, it'd be interesting to look back at all previous ministers for transport to see who actually had any plans/experience/ideology in the area, before assuming the role.

because i guarantee you the vast majority were placed in the role simply as an 'i'm the taoiseach and i need to give this TD a ministerial role to reward them for their effort/seniority/stop them backstabbing me' appointment; and that is one of the major issues we've seen with transport, the person nominally in charge usually has no greater knowledge than the average joe soap on the topic, until they take up the position.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734168#Comment_121734168

That's actually quite interesting, was still Irish Free State back then. Energy independence from the tans was the goal there I suspect.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733506#Comment_121733506

I've driven in most of Europe (admittedly not in the East so much) and off the top of my head I don't know any EU country with a better motorway network in terms of layout, junction design, consistency, safety, functionality and coverage per head of population. I would say Ireland is a clear number 1 here. Perhaps you can highlight an example or point to some other metric that you have used to quantify 'better'.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734331#Comment_121734331

Me too, albeit on a Motorcycle

France, Germany, England (not Scotland and wales), Sweden, Norway, Northern Italy have excellent road networks

Switzerland, Austria Croatia and Slovenia have good roads and get a pass from me given the terrain.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733900#Comment_121733900

There is no way to know for sure (investors, share prices and what not) but the original investment was 5B, that then needed to be supplemented with another 12B. I know lads that worked on the site and said it was an absolute sh*t show, a sub contractors paradise. And even on opening day there was some remark that after Leo said Intel was committed to Ireland Pat came along straight after and said Ireland will need to compete next time (Or something along those lines). read between the lines I suppose.

What does any of this have to do with the Irish government?

Also Ireland has had to compete for every investment from Intel, they won some and lost some.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734240#Comment_121734240

This in a nutshell. I cannot disagree with any of this.

Eamon Ryan is an atrocious communicator, and has a knack of winding people up the wrong way about green initiatives with his almost “Jesuitical” tone. It annoys me as much as anyone.

But the reality is that since he became Minister for Transport he has progressed the big transport investment projects through cabinet to ABP as the NTA wanted them, been responsible for the largest expansion of rural transport in decades, funded 5 phases of BusConnects new network in Dublin, and implemented significant fare cuts across the entire country.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734302#Comment_121734302

That’s easy. None of them.

Transport has always been seen as an unimportant department that was given to people just to keep them sweet.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734240#Comment_121734240

I agree with you there that the Metro North is a dead duck, and of course as you say there's been progress on a number of projects... However when you're starting from a very low threshold over the last say 20 years then of course anything seems like great work... I'm sure that in another 20 years we'll still be talking about tramlines, train lines and undergrounds to the Airport...

And when Mr. Ryan comes out with statements like "The Green party leader pledged to make cycling feel safe for everyone, adding that every city and town across the country will see cycling and walking become the “mainstream form” of transport." Does make it seem like fantastic progress has been made but in reality cycling across Dublin city centre can't be done without mixing with Heavy vehciles such as Lorries and buses and your bike can't be locked without high risk of theft.. so yes he's a poor communicator to say the least...

magicbastarder

you seem to be confusing what is intended as a prediction/promise, as a statement of actual current fact.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734496#Comment_121734496

Sub Contractor issues on major projects in Ireland and the cost/completion time overruns. Doesn't matter who's paying. That was the point I was trying to make.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121731319#Comment_121731319

Was this the same interview where his first sentence was about the Metro going to planning next month?

What more 'urgency' do you want? Should he take out his shovel and go digging himself?

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734559#Comment_121734559

MetroLink replaced Metro North. Whether it will be delivered is another matter, but hopefully so.

I dont know if Eamon Ryan is responsible for all the bike lanes or if that roll out is managed via the local councils?

Some local councils seem to do a better job than others.

DLR vs DCC as an example.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734643#Comment_121734643

It happens everywhere. Ever hear of Berlin Brandenburg Airport or Stuttgart 21 in Germany? Crossrail or HS2 in the UK? It's not in any way unique to Ireland.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734690#Comment_121734690

No Ryan isn't but his department provides the funding and leadership for this, then up to the Government to deal with councils who fall behind in their commitment to build the infrastructure..

Statements from the Government minister about cycling becoming so widespread when for example I have to cycle 5km before I get to a protected cycle lane in Dublin City doesn't fill me with any confidence in him... Same to get to the airport, no protected cycle path apart from at Dardistown at the runway fence..

Chopper Dave

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734677#Comment_121734677

It was the whole interview to be honest which included Metrolink, Dublin Airport and the upcoming referendums. He didn’t give a view on anything other than to defer to ABP, Fingal, the Courts. He didn’t come across as someone who will get things done IMHO.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734702#Comment_121734702

Indeed it does, their economies though are 5 or 7 times greater than our own. And they get more stuff right than they get wrong and seem to have far more projects going on.

Stuttgart is the biggest F**k up you mentioned. I think it's 8 times the original cost or something like that, although it been over many many years.

PAC has said metro must not go over 9.5B, Some estimates are putting it at 21B which means is something REALLY goes wrong we're on the hook for the 21B or even more. Given what's happened with the Children's hospital, there are no politicians willing to pull the trigger, cause the initial costs are so excessively high (Everything costs more in Ireland) and the near guarantee a project like this will inevitably spiral out of control.

I really hope Metro and indeed other infra gets built, but I'll be retired by the time it/they are completed, so won't actually matter to me.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734481#Comment_121734481

They are good but their motorway networks are certainly not better than Ireland's by any measure. Italy's motorways are mostly garbage, very poor quality junctions on the vast majority of the network, poor signage and exits have a tendency to be sharp right turns. Italy also charges gargantuan tolls to use them.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734810#Comment_121734810

He cannot legally interfere with the planning process.

I don’t know what you expect him to do or say?

He has progressed all of the current public transport projects to ABP, but he has no jurisdiction over how that organisation proceeds with them.

Listening to him will frustrate you, but to be honest you’re better looking at what has been delivered.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734643#Comment_121734643

So the government is responsible for the poor organisation and running of public projects, and the government is responsible for the poor running and organisation of private projects?

Intel has access to contractors and sub contractors on a global scale. Maybe big projects are just difficult.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734559#Comment_121734559

well yes we'll be talking about new tramlines, train lines and undergrounds in 20 years, hopefully new projects. We can't just stand still after the current crop are complete. The city centre transport plan and bus connects are going to revolutionise cycling in Dublin, the former is to be delivered in part this August according to headlines today.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733900#Comment_121733900

Port Tunnel is a classic example of this. A mistake was made on Max truck height.

I'm sorry, you are repeating this old bollock myth!

There was no mistake made, they made a specific engineering decision to exclude the largest trucks. Trucks over 4.65m's made up less then 1% of trucks in Ireland. Supporting these tiny number of larger trucks would have meant building a much larger tunnel, with a larger TBM and thus more costly.

What is interesting about this, is that the Port Tunnel at 4.65m's is already a lot larger then most tunnels across Europe. The maximum height of trucks in most mainland EU countries is actually only 4 meters. :

https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/docs/dimensions-2019.pdf

Since then, trucks over 4.65m's have been banned from Irish roads. To be honest, these super large trucks always caused problems even before the port tunnel as they were too large to fit under many rail bridges around the country etc.

As you can see from the above table, Irelands limit of 4.65m is actually the highest in Europe (where defined), with most being just 4 meters.

L1011

Childrens hospital ventilation thing is also absolute bobbins as far as I know. A few ducts need to be moved over a few ceiling tiles - ten minutes work. The claimed rectification figure came from a media hungry populist political party and was basically the cost of an entire new AC unit + ducting per theatre.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735272#Comment_121735272

Hmmmm

The super cubes were just 30cm higher. It was a long time ago, but in 2003 the issue came to light (I think), construction started in 2000.

The port company only at that point stated they that 1% of trucks exceed the 4.65 limit, a statistic that know one knew about until 2003 apparently, weird

bug or a feature I suppose, depending on who you ask.

The Irony of all this is that now we're stuck with a new car Depot in Dublin Port that we cannot get rid of, as there is no quick and easy way to get the new cars out of the port.

csirl

There's no major party that is against the metro, DART+ etc. The question really is what potential political party or parties are (1) best at delivery and (2) are strong on the economy so as to fund projects. Ideology re pro or anti development and pro or anti the full range of delivery methods, including private investment, are also important.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733900#Comment_121733900

Port Tunnel is a classic example of this. A mistake was made on Max truck height

I don't believe that there was a mistake made. There was a discussion as to whether we should build it to fit all truck sizes with the IRHA saying afterwards that we might regret not having built it taller than we did. The IRHA did not make any submissions during the design phase. The final height of 4.65m is a standard used by the International Transport Forum...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Port_Tunnel#:~:text=Among%20the%2044%20countries%20of,is%20the%20highest%20specified%20height.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734796#Comment_121734796

Getting a cycle lane built is a difficult process given the amount of opposition it generates usually because it will result in public space being switched from free car parking although the reason given ironically is one that the cycle lanes themselves will create a road safety risk. Then you get some councillors and TDs seeing an opportunity to get their face photographed and they oppose the plans because of [insert similar bogus reasons here]. Look at Salthill - sure look at any plan than involves a segregated cycle lane. It would probably be easier to get a motorway built from Busaras to the Airport than it would be to get properly designed segregated cycle lanes!

These all are from just the last few weeks...

https://www.clare.fm/featured-2/claims-removing-ennis-cycle-lane-spoke-wheel-road-safety/

https://irishcycle.com/2024/02/06/green-td-calls-sinn-fein-stance-against-protected-cycle-lanes-anti-cycling-anti-road-safety-anti-climate-action-bolloxology/

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/dublin/dublin-news/nightmare-for-residents-on-deansgrange-road-as-they-lose-parking-outside-their-homes/a1612142694.html

https://dublininquirer.com/2024/02/06/outside-lusk-road-changes-and-a-new-cycle-lane-trigger-debate-around-safety-and-space/

https://irishcycle.com/2024/02/05/sinn-fein-fianna-fail-solidarity-independent-councillors-voice-concerns-against-new-dublin-cycle-route-leaving-only-a-green-to-support-it/

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735889#Comment_121735889

here's a quick question, i don't expect you to be able to answer - would the extra cost of making a noticeably wider tunnel have been more or less than the combined value of the supercube trucks? assuming that bk's stat that they were less than 1% of the trucks in ireland?

e.g. could it have cost €200m more to widen the tunnel, to accept trucks with a total replacement value of €100m?

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738799#Comment_121738799

Yea the tunnel debate is almost as old as the train line to the airport debate. And I'm sure we'll all be waiting another 20 years or more to see a safe cycle route to the airport from the city centre...

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735897#Comment_121735897

Sinn Fein are non-committal on public transport. Their representatives were recently asking Irish Rail at a Dail Committee about a heavy rail link from Clongriffin.