Stardust - why is it taking so long?

whisky_galore

Just this. Been rumbling on and on since forever and relatives must be dying off at this stage being denied any closure.

Vic_08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058333264/stardust-why-is-it-taking-so-long

To ensure that nobody accountable is still alive to be actually held accountable, it's just how things are done here.

bigroad

Were the owners not friends of Charlie.

Gregor Samsa

I'm not sure which question the OP is asking. There's two interpretations I can see anyway.

• Why did it take so long for there to be an inquest?

There were inquests back in 1982, but they came to no verdicts. So the families have been campaigning for proper investigations or a full public enquiry ever since. The powers that be be did everything in those powers of theirs to prevent that and hope that it would go away. The Butterlys did everything they could (and they had connections) to sweep it under the carpet and make out that they were the real victims - remember, they got £581,000 in 1983 (€730,000 in a direct conversion, millions if inflation is factored in) in compensation from Dublin City Council. In contrast Christine Keegan's family, who lost two girls (Mary and Martina), got £15,000 in total. Christine herself passed away in 2020. The families even had to fight the Butterlys to put up a simple memorial plaque at the site.

The families (who are indeed dying off - siblings who were only children when the disaster happened have had to take the mantle of campaigning over from their parents) didn't stop putting on the pressure, and eventually - 42 years later - got new inquests.

Or...

• Why is the inquest taking so long?

Well, it's not just one inquest. It's 48 inquests rolled into one. Details of each and every one of those poor people have to be heard and examined. Then there's all the details technical and forensic stuff, being poured over in minute detail. It's been going on since April 2023, but it doesn't sit every day. For instance, last year, it sat on the following dates:

• 25th April -25th May
•  7th June – 14th July (inclusive)
•  4th September – 15th December (inclusive)

This year, it only started back up again on the 9th of January.

The legal teams, the jury, the witnesses, the experts - even, or rather especially, the families can't be expected to be available all day every day for the extent of an large inquest like this across months, so it has to be broken up and scheduled into parts.

While no-one wants it going on forever, after fighting so hard and for so long to get it in the first place, the families certainly don't want the inquest to be rushed. The want no stone left unturned. So it's going to take time.

As for accountability, unfortunately an inquest is not the place to determine accountability. No-one will be held accountable from this process. Inquests determine how someone died. They're not a trial.

An inquest can return the following verdicts:

• Accidental death
• Misadventure
• Suicide
• Open verdict
• Natural causes
• Unlawful killing
• Narrative Verdict (an explanation of the facts of the mode of death)

Of these, I'm sure the families are hoping for "unlawful killing" - this, in their eyes, would be the nearest thing to establishing accountability.

Eamonn Butterly initiated a judicial review attempting to have the option of Unlawful Killing removed from the inquest jury, however the Hight Court rejected this.

anewme

This night, 43 years ago, 48 young people never came home to their families, who are still awaiting justice.

They will not be forgotten.

RIP.

Ubbquittious

Because Irish society absolutely loves to wallow in the aftermath of a tragedy. There is something deeply engrained in our culture that makes people absolutely relish in a good sob story. Particularly a sob story that involves others and doesn't affect themselves

Omagh bombing

Whiddy Island

Stardust

Catholic Church abuse

Bloody Sunday

These things are all going to keep coming back up until they're erased from living memory, war breaks out or some other bigger tragedies come along to overwrite them

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765187#Comment_121765187

There's something deeply engrained in our culture

There is indeed. It's called a sense of justice. And to be fair, it's not just Irish, it's fairly universal. You'll see memorials and campaigns for justice across the globe.

You not having it or understanding it is your personal failing, not society's.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765187#Comment_121765187

You forgot Sophie Tuscan De Planter in West Cork.

A "trendy tragedy" if ever there was one. It's a darling of the media for sure.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765533#Comment_121765533

This is kept alive through public fascination with the unsolved murder of a good looking, wealthy white woman.

Had she been a lowly housewife, or a man, the story would have been long forgotten.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766672#Comment_121766672

Exactly.

The sexy name, the french connection, the mystery.

All the media pretending to care but all any of them are after is making money from it.

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765503#Comment_121765503

They're not anywhere near as drawn out or as frequently rehashed as over here.

The one from abroad that sticks out is Madeleine McCann. Maybe it's partially egged on by RTE using minor updates to old tragedies to fill slow news days

Feisar

Just read the Butterly family were awarded £580K!!!

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770492#Comment_121770492

Yes, from Dublin City Council in 1983.

In contrast Christine Keegan's family, who lost two daughters (Mary and Martina), got £15,000 in total.

And some fools think the campaign for justice is “wallowing” in tragedy.

anewme

Thinking of victims , family and friends today, including those who campaigned and haven’t lived tio be here this afternoon.

It really has been too long.

Leg End Reject

I hope the family and friends of all those who died have some closure after today.

Half a lifetime of campaigning has to take a toll.

Gregor Samsa

"The jury has returned a verdict of unlawful killing in each case of the 48 who died in the Stardust tragedy."

Some bit of justice for the families at long last. RIP the 48 innocent victims.

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2024/04/18/stardust-dublin-nightclub-fire-inquests-verdicts/

pjordan

Posted this on the Liveline thread because of the live coverage of the verdict there but probably more applicable for here:

I was 11 the time of the Stardust fire, so younger than those who perished and just a bit too young to contemplate what a nightclub/disco was like, but within a few years I discovered and hung out in too many places that flaunted the fire regulations just like The Stardust did for greed and profit above all else, and were protected by political, legal and financial interests in doing so.

Even at that age and in the ensuing 40+ years it seemed completely insane and criminally negligent to think that converting a former jam factor to a night club by adding some highly flammable tiered seats, plastering the walls with flammable carpet tiles, overloading an electrical system unfit for usage and paring costs to the last on staffing, training and security so much so that it became necessary (or more financially expedient) to lock the fire escape doors instead of monitoring them with security staff.

All that has been pretty obvious to most people for the past 40+ years yet in an appalling insult to the victims, their families and the people of Artane and Coolock, this was all conveniently swept under the carpet for years and kept there by political and legal machinations and expediency. Was it perhaps because the B family were good constituents of CJH? Was it perhaps that he needed to reward Justice K because he was having an affair with his wife? Either way it all stank from day 1 and CJH's dirty paw prints were all over it, right from his crocodile tears in the aftermath?

Finally today the grieving families have had their justice and, a very much lesser consideration, Christy Moore has been vindicated for that accusatory line in "They never came home". May God bless them all and their memory.

Strumms

aside from an acknowledgment of the facts… which is indeed welcome…

Justice just looking from the outside in , isn’t acknowledging facts…

Justice is those still alive who were responsible for the deaths, being held to account and receiving punishment… im not an expert on the law but I don’t see mentioned anywhere that might be possible.

So unless families have the energy, heart and wherewithal to go after Eamonn Butterly in a civil case, using evidence from the inquest….?

Maybe some can or will I don’t know but I’d be inclined to think it will end here.

mvt

Well done to the jurors- hopefully will offer some solice to the families of the victims & please don't forgot the many serious injuries & mental trauma of others who were present that night.

Two very nice & truthful posts above, I have very clear memories of this incident & that time.

The family that unbelievably still owns the space where the Stardust was should be ashamed of themselves for their behaviour over this but its probably a concept they wouldn't understand.

DellyBelly

What does this verdict mean now in layman terms. Can somebody be held accountable (if they are still alive)?

Leg End Reject

Even BBC is reporting it as their top story now.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-68845091?src_origin=BBCS_BBC

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035203#Comment_122035203

Sky News too

https://news.sky.com/story/deaths-of-48-people-in-1981-fire-at-dublins-stardust-nightclub-fire-were-unlawful-killing-jury-rules-13117827

Hontou

Unlawful killing. Finally. I remember as a child hearing the ambulances and fire brigades that night. All night. Nothing will bring them back but this is at least the correct verdict.

FrancieBrady

Fair play to all who continued the fight.
They deserve their apology now from the reps of successive governments.
Also whatever compensation is deemed appropriate.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035166#Comment_122035166

So unless families have the energy, heart and wherewithal to go after Eamonn Butterly in a civil case, using evidence from the inquest….?

If I'm not mistaken, the Butterly's were awarded over almost six hundred thousand pounds after the original whitewash tribunal because the fire was, as per the original whitewash tribunal, probably arson. According to the Indo, the average house price back then was about £35k which puts the "compensation" amount in perspective. More as a symbol, surely the state could look for this money (index linked) to be returned?

Furze99

It was a shocking event at the time for anyone in that age range of those who died. The sort of place you could easily have been.

An absolute disgrace that the basic facts were not established back in the initial tribunal, cause of fire and the outrageous practice of locking fire exits.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035345#Comment_122035345

It was known at the time that exits were locked. I remember it well and that didn't just happen in the Stardust.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035198#Comment_122035198

Also who gets to be held accountable if this couldn't have been officially established from the start?

JP Liz V1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035198#Comment_122035198

Yes can someone be prosecuted if alive?

Seth Brundle

There were some "mistruths" told during the inquest. I guess for proper accountability, you'd need to hold a criminal trial (which a coroner's court can't).

I also note in the Irish Times that the then Stardust manager, Eamon Butterly, had sought permission for a judicial review of the tribunal verdict which would have chjallenged the coroner's decisions.
https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2024/04/18/stardust-manager-eamon-butterly-made-high-court-application-before-jury-began-deliberations-at-inquests/

gipi

It is now being reported that a recent court application was made by Eamon Butterly to try to stop the inquest jury from having the option of "unlawful killing" as a verdict. The application was made during the inquest but there were reporting restrictions on it till today.

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2024/04/18/stardust-manager-eamon-butterly-made-high-court-application-before-jury-began-deliberations-at-inquests/

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035540#Comment_122035540

Tell us it was unlawful without telling us it was unlawful.

iamwhoiam

i have huge admiration for the families who kept going and 40 years later got a glimmer of satisfaction . Fair play to each and every one of them who fought for their loved ones

Leilak

I wonder how much the government apology will cost ? I reckon possibly 30m

Conor Bourke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774128#Comment_121774128

what would you expect from a pig but a grunt :rolleyes:

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035540#Comment_122035540

Let's remind ourselves of something…

https://twitter.com/JoeBrolly1993/status/1679841288982523904

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035540#Comment_122035540

I’m surprised to hear that there were reporting restrictions on that. It must have been reported in the media before, because I mentioned it earlier in the thread on January 26th. I just can’t remember where I read it now.

Edit: ah, he brought two separate judicial reviews to try to get Unlawful Killing removed. One in 2022 (which is what I was referring to) and another during the inquest, which has only come to light now. He really didn’t want the truth coming out, did he?

Cluedo Monopoly

The relatives deserve a full public apology from the government for the delays in getting justice. 43 years waiting. I was only 10 but I do remember the public shock so well. There was always a north side bias on the attempts for justice.

whisky_galore

If the kids came from leafy suburbia, it would have wrapped up decades ago.

They hoped the poors wouldn't have the money and would just suck it up and go away.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035795#Comment_122035795

Thoroughly agree. Another shameful long episode of no redress or justice.

Seth Brundle

The Taoiseach has issued a statement…

Goldengirl

I am sure I am not the only one who shed a tear over this today

I was the same age as those who died, and it always stuck with me , it was so close to home.

Many discos and events we would have frequented at the time would have had exits similarly barred or locked , so this was a disaster waiting to happen.

I remember talking to a fire officer in another jurisdiction about 10 years later and they all knew the exits were locked in the Stardust , and would have been having a lot of difficulty even after that getting owners of clubs and dance halls sanctioned for continuing to lock the doors.

As regards the verdict so much credit to the families and Charlie Bird RIP who kept on at it and kept it in the public eye until they got justice .

Shame so many are not here to see this today .

It is a black hole in the neighbourhood because many felt that Butterfly's literally got away with ……and they only erected a plaque on a back wall a few years ago because of continuing pressure from the Stardust committee .

They built a service station out the front to hide the very recognisable building but never a mention that this was where 48 young people lost their lives until that plaque was forced out of them .

Nothing further will come of this unless the government support it .Inquests cannot apportion blame .

As far as I know the DPP would have to decide whether to take it further .

Butterly will appeal most likely and with their money (580 K in 1983 certainly helped !) and a good legal team will keep it at bay for another decade or so .

But rest assured if this had happened in another more affluent part of the city all those families would have been properly treated and compensated decades ago .

Charlie Haughey , and others do not come out of this well .

Not only did they not support the families they supported Butterly in his claims for compensation .They also refused further enquiries when the dogs on the street knew that the exits were locked and that flammable materials were stored in the building , as well as poor electrics and zero fire training for those working there .

May all those young people who died rest in peace now and hopefully their loved ones can find some comfort in this judgement today .

PmMeUrDogs

My mother was meant to be there, but she was grounded after being caught sneaking out to it (she was 17). Her brother was meant to be there, and the family had a night awake, terrified, until he walked in the door after having changed his mind and gone elsewhere. They knew almost everyone that died. They were friends with so many of them.

Her brother didn't live to see this verdict, but it genuinely means so much to the friends of the victims, and the locals who were also impacted emotionally. Traumatised isn't a word I use lightly but so many were.

I really, really hope some actual justice of some kind, or reparations, are forthcoming

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035364#Comment_122035364

Yes, it has long been talked about. But responsibility for it denied all the way to the present tribunal by those who might be held accountable. As in https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/09/21/former-manager-of-stardust-eamon-butterly-insisted-he-instructed-doormen-not-to-lock-emergency-exits/

The buck has to stop somewhere and in this case the above.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035540#Comment_122035540

He's been fighting against this day for a long time.

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035800#Comment_122035800

Butterly had strong links to Fianna Fail, and Haughey. It was just buried or made the cause or culpabiility in the deaths go away. They said arson. As a result Butterly got over £500k compensation. Thats shocking when you see todays verdict.

Its a pity Charlie Bird (RIP) is not here to see this day. He would have been so happy. He was very invested in this story and did a lot for the families of the victims and their long campaign

Information was posted above on this too. I had not read the whole thread

hotmail.com

Butterly should be forced to pay the money back.

Not that that's ever going to happen. A firece lack of honourability in Irish culture. Just look at Dee Forbes still claiming to be sick.

Atlantic Dawn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122036548#Comment_122036548

Yes it was 'malicious damages' compensation he got from the government which I had never heard of before. Did he not have any insurance whatsoever for the venue 🤔.

Seems like there were problems underwriting it previously...

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/stardust-nightclub-was-pretty-horrendous-fire-risk-inquest-hears-1555073.html

stargazer 68

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035902#Comment_122035902

We had family meant to be there too. They had 2 young kids and had gone out for the night. I remember my grandad (I was 12) coming to our door for my dad to go with him to their house to check if they were there or not. Thankfully they had changed their minds and gone somewhere else.

Anyone who lived in the area was touched by this horrific night. Everyone knew someone who was connected to it whether they lost someone or survived

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122036572#Comment_122036572

I am not sure it was said elsewhere, but essentially, it was our Hillsborough.

It should never have happened. Butterly was being incredibly narcissistic in petitioning the High Court re the Unlawful Death verdict and apporting blame, something the tribunal cannot do. Self preservation already start and will only increase if it's escalated to criminal investigation.

gipi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122036563#Comment_122036563

And as we now know, there was no "malicious damage" caused.