Discrepancy Between Electoral Outcomes and Political Representation in Irish Politics

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058335248/discrepancy-between-electoral-outcomes-and-political-representation-in-irish-politics

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739720#Comment_121739720

My AI says your AI is wrong....

The assertion that Irish politics is plagued by challenges that cast doubt on the efficacy of democratic processes warrants a closer examination. While it is true that no political system is flawless, let’s address the specific points raised:

• Complexity and Challenges:The premise acknowledges the complexity of Irish politics, which is indeed multifaceted due to historical, cultural, and social factors.
• However, complexity does not inherently invalidate democratic processes. Rather, it reflects the intricate interplay of diverse interests and viewpoints within a democratic society.
• Struggles Faced by Prominent Figures:The claim that figures like Leo Varadkar and Micheál Martin struggle to secure election in their constituencies is not unique to Ireland. Such electoral battles occur in many democratic systems.
• These struggles are a testament to the competitive nature of elections, where candidates must engage with voters, articulate their positions, and earn legitimacy.
• Rather than undermining democracy, this process ensures that representatives are accountable to their constituents.
• Disproportionate Influence of Minority Parties:The assertion that minority parties, like the Greens, exert disproportionate influence despite limited electoral support raises valid questions.
• However, it is essential to recognize that coalition governments often require compromise and negotiation. Smaller parties can contribute fresh perspectives and hold larger parties accountable.
• Their influence is not inherently undemocratic; it reflects the pluralistic nature of democratic governance.
• Sinn Féin’s Electoral Success and Governance:The 2020 success of Sinn Féin in winning the popular vote highlights the disconnect between electoral outcomes and actual governance.
• Yet, this dissonance is not unique to Ireland. It occurs in parliamentary systems worldwide.
• The intricacies of coalition-building and the need for consensus often lead to compromises. While Sinn Féin secured votes, forming a stable government requires more than mere popularity.
• Coalition governments, while complex, represent a balance of interests and prevent domination by any single party.
• Government Formation and Representation:The claim that the end result is a government formed through a convoluted process is accurate. However, this process is inherent to parliamentary democracies.
• Coalition agreements reflect the will of multiple parties, aiming to represent diverse constituencies.
• While compromises occur, they do not necessarily negate genuine representation. Instead, they reflect the art of governance in a diverse society.

In summary, Irish politics faces challenges, but these challenges are not unique to Ireland. They are inherent to democratic systems, where complexity, electoral battles, coalition dynamics, and compromise coexist. Rather than eroding trust, these processes underscore the resilience of democratic institutions1.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739863#Comment_121739863

Why should anyone be bothered to put any more effort into replying to your topic, than you put into creating it?

EDIT,

Again. please let folk know which correction and grammar check you are using. As if there's one out there that generates a 98% AI authorship score, it needs to be called out as a danger to students, writers and academics. You would be doing a mitzvah ;)

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739863#Comment_121739863

Because it's such bullshit that it could only have come from a source that doesn't know its arse from its elbow. Your complete refusal to tackle any of the points raised only proves this further. You don't know what you're talking about, clearly.

Why are you using AI to create threads, can you not type your own thoughts and feelings on the matter?

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739919#Comment_121739919

Even their replies are via AI,

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739525#Comment_121739525

This time though they did at least contribute 4% ;)

As for the OP pondering if my life is so boring that I have nothing better to do than query their use of AI? Funnily enough, spotting AI and its uses is one of the things I feel is important for student and academic integrity.

Also, why get so upset about someone pointing out your use of AI? Its not like its your work that's been called out? I put as much effort into doing it, as you put into posting it, i.e not a lot😉

davetherave

Just to humour the OP, here would be the results assuming a FPTP still with the same amount of seats per constituency. Big jump for FF.

This is done purely on 1st preferences with the top 3/4/5 getting the seats based off the 1st count. The difference over the actual election results is as below.

• SF: +2
• FF: +10
• FG: -2
• G: -3
• LAB: No Change
• PBP: -2
• Ind: -2
• I4C: -1
• SOC Dem: -2

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739662#Comment_121739662

"The green party got 7% of the vote, yet they hold 7.5% of the power (12 seats out of 160).....oh the Humanity!!!!!!"

mariaalice

A bit of ambiguity in politics is a good thing it gets things done and prevents ideologically based politics from getting too much of a hold in Ireland.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739696#Comment_121739696

Firstly you don't understand what the word majority means, the majority of voters in your image actually voted for candidates other than the tory, therefore the tory did not as you claim get a majority of the votes.

Secondly there has only been 1 single government in the UK elected in the past 100 years by a majority of voters ie more than 50%, hilariously and unfortunately for your anti-coalition argument it was the con/lib dem coalition.

An example is the current tory government in 2019 won 365 seats out of 650 which is a 56% majority of seats, however they only got 43.6% of the vote which is very much not a majority.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739525#Comment_121739525

What nonsense, both in the OP and in this post.

Sinn Fein did not win the popular vote in the last election. They only got a minority of votes. 71% of the people voted for Sinn Fein to stay out of government, they could only get support from Aontu and PBP.

A huge majority of the population didn't want Sinn Fein anywhere near government and that is the outcome they got.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739767#Comment_121739767

That is great news if true. If the OP was an AI generated post, it means that such nonsense can be spotted reliably and consistently.

Paranoid Bob

If you are going to get upset about the political process in Ireland than I'd suggest there is a much bigger problem than the power exercised by small parties in coalition.

As Walter John noted: Once anyone is elected to Parliament, their job is to exercise their judgement, not reflect the views on their constituents on every issue.

I'd add to that and say it is the representatives job to exercise their judgement, not blindly follow party leadership on every issue. In Ireland the party whip is applied to virtually every vote. Representatives have no opportunity to reflect either their conscience or their constituents' views in votes in the Dáil. Whenever a party member comes to my door looking for a vote I ask them why I should care who they are or what their views are, because when it comes to their voting history what matters is who their party leader is and what the party politics are. I have no reason to care who the candidate is; I have no control on the selection of their party leader or on the parties policies. This is confirmed by the fact that on the few occasions where I write to a representative to express a view on a policy or upcoming vote the response I get is always a template party response with no input from my representative.

My representative has no capacity to actually represent my views, or even their views. The only views they can represent are those of the party.

We should have more free votes in the Dáil and the practice of 'pairing' should be abolished. That way we could actually judge our representatives on what matters; their voting history.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740894#Comment_121740894

I've posted screenshots of the AI analysis tool I used on a couple of the OP's posts on this thread. OP has claimed he uses a spell checker/Grammar tool. I've asked him which one as any that gets reported as 98% + 96% ai generated? Needs to be flagged to allow students and other writers relying on the tool, be saved the ignominy of being accused falsely.

L.Ball

Proof is in the pudding, and we are currently governed by 2 parties with jobsharing taoisigh, neither of which secured a mandate from the people to govern. And then we have the Shinners waiting in the wings, ready to coast on the votes of people who want more freebies. One thing is for certain, change on a national and local level is impossible, as grassroots political organization has been priced out of the market. I'd argue we get the government we deserve.

L.Ball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739720#Comment_121739720

Oh that settles that, nothing wrong with Irish politics, back to work everyone.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121741808#Comment_121741808

How in your opinion do you secure a mandate to govern?

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739696#Comment_121739696

So 62% of the voters didn't want a Conservative MP???

Jim_Hodge

I just asked copilot in Bing for a comment on Electoral results and parliamentary representation in Ireland and it spewed out the following. So enough said. The OP didn't write the OP.

"The state of Irish politics presents a complex tapestry of challenges that call into question the efficacy of democratic processes in truly representing the will of the people. Despite the ostensibly democratic framework, the electoral landscape is riddled with flaws that undermine the principle of fair and representative governance.

One glaring example of this discrepancy lies in the repeated struggles faced by prominent figures like Leo Varadkar and Micheál Martin in securing election in their own constituencies. Rather than being direct representatives of their constituents, elected officials often find themselves embroiled in protracted battles for legitimacy, raising doubts about the authenticity of their mandates and the extent to which they truly represent the interests of their constituents.

Moreover, the disproportionate influence wielded by minority parties, such as the Greens, who garnered just over 155,000 votes, in advancing policies despite lacking majority support, further underscores the democratic deficit within the political landscape. The fact that parties with relatively small electoral mandates can exert significant sway over policy-making processes not only dilutes the principle of majority"

Jim_Hodge

Copilot offers the following as a rebuttal to the OP with an analysis of the advantages of PR in Ireland. Chatbots debating themselves...

1. Diverse Representation: PR-STV allows voters to rank candidates in order of preference. As a result, it leads to more variety for voters, with TDs (Teachta Dála) being returned from multiple parties. This diversity ensures that a broader spectrum of views is represented in the parliament.
2. Coalition Governments: Due to the proportional nature of PR-STV, coalition governments are quite common in Ireland. Smaller parties have a chance to gain seats, contributing to a more collaborative approach to governance. While this can sometimes lead to complex negotiations, it also fosters compromise and consensus-building.
3. Avoiding Absolute Majorities: PR rarely produces an absolute majority for a single party. While this may seem like a disadvantage, it ensures that no party has unchecked power. Instead, governments are formed through negotiation and cooperation, promoting stability and preventing extreme policies.
4. Higher Voter Turnout: PR encourages voter participation. Knowing that their preferences matter, voters are more likely to engage in the democratic process. The ability to rank candidates provides a sense of agency and ownership.
5. Continuity of Government: Unlike winner-takes-all systems, PR ensures greater continuity of government. Even if a party doesn’t win an outright majority, it can still participate in governing coalitions. This stability benefits policy implementation and long-term planning.

elperello

Where does all this leave us when the AI is smarter than the person using it ?

We find ourselves disagreeing with a position that the proposer is not fit to sustain.

The death of discussion forums ?

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739662#Comment_121739662

You are displaying your ignorance by assigning significance to the number of count when a TD was elected.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121742104#Comment_121742104

AI doesn't get the intricacies of vote management, nor the concept of more than one count to reach a quota.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739662#Comment_121739662

Suppose there are 20 candidates in a 4-seater.

Suppose 12 of the candidates are weak.

There have to be several counts to eliminate these weak candidates.

So no TD might be elected until the sixth, seventh or eighth count.

That is a feature of PR-STV, it is not a fault.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739662#Comment_121739662

And? I don't see how any of that is relevant at all to be honest. They all got elected.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743186#Comment_121743186

OP has shown they don't understand election systems, my guess is they just don't like our current government and as shown by @banie01 used AI to craft them an argument that sounds smart but really has no substance whatsoever once anyone who does understand the systems picks it apart.

Pherekydes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739696#Comment_121739696

It's obvious, that apart from not understanding what PR-STV is, you don't understand the meaning of the word 'majority'.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739525#Comment_121739525

First Past the Post (FPTP) is a voting system in which voters cast their ballot for a single candidate in a single-member constituency, and the candidate with the most votes wins. While FPTP works for some countries, it may not be well-suited for Ireland due to several factors:

1. Proportional Representation: Ireland values proportional representation, meaning that seats in the legislature are allocated in proportion to the number of votes each party receives. FPTP tends to produce disproportional outcomes, often favoring larger parties and leading to disparities between a party's share of the vote and its share of seats in the legislature. This could result in underrepresentation of smaller parties and limited diversity of political voices.
2. Multi-party System: Ireland has a multi-party system with a diverse range of political parties and independent candidates. FPTP tends to reinforce a two-party system, making it difficult for smaller parties and independent candidates to win representation. This could lead to a lack of political diversity and limited choice for voters.
3. Regionalism: Ireland's political landscape includes regional variations and distinct local interests. FPTP may not adequately represent these regional differences, particularly if one or two dominant parties win most seats in each constituency, ignoring the diversity of opinions and preferences within the region.
4. Coalition Governments: Ireland often has coalition governments, where multiple parties come together to form a government. FPTP tends to favor single-party majority governments, making it less conducive to coalition-building and negotiation, which are essential aspects of Irish politics.
5. Accountability and Representation: FPTP can lead to a lack of proportionality between votes cast and seats won, potentially reducing accountability and representation. In contrast, Ireland's PRSTV system allows voters to express their preferences more fully, leading to a more accurate reflection of voter preferences and better representation in the legislature.

Overall, while FPTP may work well for some countries with different political contexts, it may not be the best fit for Ireland, which values proportional representation, political diversity, and coalition governance. Ireland's PRSTV system better aligns with these principles and helps to ensure a fair and inclusive electoral process.

First Past the Post (FPTP) is often considered unsuitable for a country like Ireland due to several reasons:

1. Underrepresentation of Minorities: FPTP tends to favor larger parties and can marginalize smaller parties and independent candidates. In a multi-party system like Ireland's, FPTP could lead to a situation where smaller parties receive significant vote shares but win few or no seats, leading to underrepresentation of certain political views and minority groups.
2. Disproportionate Representation: FPTP can produce disproportionate results where a party with a minority of votes can win a majority of seats, or where a party with a significant share of the votes in a region may not win any seats. This leads to a lack of proportionality between the votes cast and the composition of the legislature, which may undermine the legitimacy of the electoral system.
3. Regional Representation: Ireland has diverse regional interests, and FPTP may not adequately represent these interests. It tends to favor parties with concentrated support in specific regions, leading to overrepresentation of certain regions and neglect of others. This could exacerbate regional disparities and weaken national cohesion.
4. Limited Voter Choice: FPTP often forces voters to choose between the candidates with the best chance of winning, rather than voting for their preferred candidate or party. This can result in strategic voting and a lack of genuine choice for voters, undermining democratic principles.
5. Single-Party Dominance: FPTP tends to favor the formation of single-party majority governments, which may not reflect the diversity of opinions and preferences among the electorate. In a country like Ireland, where coalition governments are common, FPTP could lead to single-party dominance and marginalization of smaller parties, stifling political pluralism.
6. Instability and Gridlock: FPTP can lead to winner-takes-all outcomes and winner's fatigue, where the winning party gains a disproportionate amount of power without corresponding popular support. This can contribute to political polarization, instability, and gridlock, making it difficult to address pressing issues and govern effectively.

Overall, while FPTP may have advantages in certain contexts, it is often seen as ill-suited for a country like Ireland, which values political diversity, proportional representation, and coalition governance. Ireland's current electoral system, Proportional Representation by a Single Transferable Vote (PRSTV), better reflects these values and helps to ensure a fair and inclusive electoral process.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058335248/discrepancy-between-electoral-outcomes-and-political-representation-in-irish-politics

Understanding Irish politics can be challenging due to several factors:

1. Complex Political System: Ireland has a multi-layered political system, with elections at the local, national, and European levels. Different electoral systems are used for each level of government, adding to the complexity. Additionally, the country's history, including its struggle for independence and the partition of the island, has shaped its political institutions and dynamics.
2. Proportional Representation: Ireland uses a Proportional Representation by a Single Transferable Vote (PRSTV) electoral system for its national elections. PRSTV is more complex than other systems like First Past the Post, as voters rank candidates in order of preference. This can make it difficult for those unfamiliar with the system to understand how votes are counted and seats allocated.
3. Coalition Governments: Ireland often has coalition governments, where multiple parties come together to form a government. This can lead to shifting alliances, complex negotiations, and compromises between parties with diverse interests. Understanding the dynamics of coalition politics requires knowledge of each party's priorities and the intricacies of policy-making.
4. Regional Differences: Ireland has diverse regional interests, with urban and rural areas often having different political priorities. Understanding these regional differences and how they influence political outcomes requires familiarity with Ireland's geography, demographics, and socio-economic characteristics.
5. Historical and Cultural Context: Ireland's history, including its colonial past, struggle for independence, and religious divisions, continues to influence its politics. Cultural factors such as language, identity, and tradition also play a role in shaping political attitudes and behaviors.
6. Current Events and Issues: Like any country, Ireland grapples with a range of contemporary issues, including healthcare, housing, education, the economy, and social justice. Understanding how these issues are addressed by political parties and debated in the public sphere requires staying informed about current events and policy debates.

To better understand Irish politics, consider familiarizing yourself with the country's political institutions, electoral system, major political parties, key political figures, historical context, and current events. Engaging with news sources, academic resources, and discussions with people familiar with Irish politics can also deepen your understanding over time.

Jim_Hodge

Two more chatbot posts. This is getting ridiculous

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745305#Comment_121745305

GPT and LLM's are really going to be death of "informed" discussion IMO. As time passes and the models get better at approximating Human syntax and patterns? They are going to be even harder to spot.

This particular thread is a case in point. Still waiting for the OP to reply with the name of the spell checker & grammar tool he was using. Plenty of people using grammarly and similar tools would hate to be falsely accused of being so lazy as to rely on AI for their work.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739358#Comment_121739358

So your saying you want the British first past the post UK system and not the PR system we have. Well until a party you don't support gains a majority