Ireland - now considered one of most vulnerable countries in the EU (defense wise)

Scipri0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121849904#Comment_121849904

I'll happily reply to your post here now. As you can tell, i was replying to a number of others as well.

You know, when it comes to our GDP, it's a load of made up nonsense and we're not really that rich. It's so "Artificially high" that even a small percentage of that spent on military gear would be a lot. I'm not a fan of us throwing money away just because we have foreign people telling us to be scared and the only way we'll be safe is to buy their weapons!

Which is a load of bullshit! No matter how much we'd spent we'd never be able to protect the cables(which are not ours by the way!) Yes we rely on some but why don't the tech companies contribute as their businesses depend on it. We'd be handing out millions a year for hardly any benefit to the people of this country that could do with investing elsewhere. I know that's these Generals are blowing smoke up our arses,

The propaganda might work in their own countries on their own population. I do question a lot, yes. This current Danish general whose country was only recently lobbying Ireland to buy weapons from them, Conservative Tory think tanks who have Ireland's interests at heart! Ah, bless them!

I'd be more open to a bit on defence spending once the infrastructure and housing among others was dealt with first and then after that the Defence forces should get wage increases before our money goes into some foreign wealthy shareholders bank account.

Pa ElGrande

Follow the money, what is the EU at? Kaja Kallas proposes €100 billion Eurobond issue to bolster defense sector | News | ERR

Within the Eurozone itself, Euorobonds or stability bonds are proposed government bonds which would be issued in euros, and jointly by the European Union's 19 Eurozone states, and was first suggested over a decade ago during the sovereign debt crisis.

In June 2012, German chancellor Angela Merkel firmly rejected any German support for Eurobonds, but since then the concept has arisen several times, including during the coronavirus pandemic.

One sticking point is that EU Eurobonds could possibly contravene Article 125, which would then to be changed prior to their introduction.

Article 125 of the Lisbon Treaty states explicitly that the EU and its member states are not liable for the commitments of other members.

As we have discussed previously on other threads invading Ireland would only happen if London's strategic interests are threatened. This ruse about NATO is about EU integration and the EU commission seeking to shore up the € by seeking the power to set taxes. President Emmanuel Macron of France, and European Council President Charles Michel are backing the eurobonds idea. Ireland being in the € but not in NATO, well that's awkward when you are issuing war bonds.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121850087#Comment_121850087

and why are they doing that?

go on.

Bigus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121850187#Comment_121850187

Excellent post , mirrors what I think. We could never spend enough so why bother at all.

I’d just like to add , that , having a lot of American investment interests here like , Intel , Microsoft , Apple , big American Pharma and some major data centres, gives us effectively more protection than we could ever muster ourselves , the Americans will go all out to protect their assets and high tech , stuff located here , along with protect the auld sod sentiment both sides of the Senate .

Also being full members of the Eu helps too . There’s other ways Ireland can step up to the mark internationally, and it’s certainly not by spending big on military.

I’m quite reassured to sleep soundly at night by above logic.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121850187#Comment_121850187

This post doesn't really address argument I made, and is going all over the shop (don't have energy/time to get into everything brought up ~ 6 different things!), but okay.

I know what you think [from other threads also] and nothing seems to help; it is all some conspiracy/cunning plot with multiple actors to get the Irish population convinced the defence/military budget needs to go up and funnel funds to arms makers.

edit: I will say I agree with one point at end, which is they have to improve pay & conditions so they can recruit people and get them to stay on + plan reliably. That is first action, done either before (or in concert) with going shopping for better/more equipment.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121849978#Comment_121849978

😂 So because the UK are in NATO, they are at fault for Russia flying into and around our airspace, correct?

buried

"Even if you are a neutral nation, you have to be able to show you will defend what is yours.”

That is absolutely hilarious. For the last 20 years the current Viceroys of this nation gave anything and everything up to whatever foreign entity that came in here swinging its greasy corporate/NGO dick and balls about the place.

Now, all of a sudden, its a problem.

Scipri0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121850460#Comment_121850460

I just need to call out the lies when i see it. Ireland increasing its defence spending won't stop cables being messed with or protect Ireland itself. We have people and groups blowing smoke up our arses trying to scare us into buying their weapons. It's not really about Ireland being able to protect itself. Why don't those U.S. companies pay to protect the cables?

They make their money off of all the data and from their sites. People like to go on like the cables belong to us, they don't and there are many redundant cables as well linking to other European countries like Spain, Portugal, France etc. Since the war in Ukraine, they're going on a blitz, taking turns calling us freeloaders and so on to guilt us into buying their ****.

Scipri0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121850585#Comment_121850585

If you look through my profile you'll see that i make these statements a lot and yes it does get tiring keeping repeating myself, but i will call them out on their bullshit when i can. Nobody is going to be blowing smoke up my ass. As i grew up, i begin to learn more on what goes on around me. Everyone has bias and that includes media, so i do question who the person is, their views, who they socialise with and so on. i do the same for media, and critical thinking comes in handy instead of believing everything you're told.

We have Leo Varadkar and his government saying they welcome everybody into Ireland because they care, but the fact is that they and their social circle are the ones who own businesses and stand to profit from more consumerism or to exploit people for a cheaper workforce. One thing he said was "Welfare cheats us all" Was he trying to turn people against those down in the lowest point in their lives?

Why didn't he care for them, his own people? But yet anyone that comes into the country on based on lies is fine. Ireland is being run as a business and the people are secondary and only there to create the honey. The ones in government are just feathering their own nests while they sell the rest of us and this country out. This is not just limited to Ireland but other countries as well.

People are being held back in life and being discarded so the rich get richer. Can't start families because housing is being turned into another profit-driven resource for the wealthy to use, worked to the bone just to live a meagre existence. There's a lot wrong, and before it goes into the pockets of foreign defence shareholders, i want this country fixed some way at least before they get their greedy mitts on our money.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121850626#Comment_121850626

😂 yes.

nato and russia have this sort of tension thing going on. you may have heard about it.

ireland and russia, not so much.

they poke around in the airspace above the north sea too. in plain language they fck with nato countries by repeatedly getting that bit too close.

and then the nato countries send up their jets to escort them out. its their dick waving contest, their responsibility. we just happen to be in the way.

satguy

We are not freeloaders .

In many a post here, I have said we need schools not fighter jets.

We have no enemies, we never did anything, to anyone, we have nothing others might want. We do not need to join up to a USA dominated NATO. To join NATO would just put a target on our backs.

But,,, and this is a big BUT

If the EU zone decided to go with an EU army, this would be fine with me,, If after a referendum and a yes vote,, If we would then be expected to spend 2% of GDP, and all other EU members did the same, This would also be fine with me,, A stronger EU can only benefit all member states.

But it would very much need to be seen as an EU army,, Not The Irish Army .. And its HQ would need to be in the EU somewhere..

Strumms

An island nation with not one single fighter jet..laughable..

the Aer Corps as it is equipped isn’t really even a military force…

its a logistical / transport / Garda support force ….

the single jet fixed wing aircraft is a corporate / government jet, the Learjet.

https://www.military.ie/en/who-we-are/air-corps/the-fleet/

^^^^ Otherwise a mixture of helicopters, single and twin propeller aircraft….beyond vulnerable…

its amazing what’s possible in this country when politicians react to certain situations and decide how and where our money gets spent and how fast…not having an air defence capability is ridiculous.

from the air corps site…

“The role of the Air Corps under the Defence Act is to contribute to the security of the State by providing for the Military Air Defence of its airspace. However in times of peace it is more usual for the Air Corps to fulfil the roles assigned by Government through the deployment of a well motivated and effective Air Corps.”

“ by providing for the military air defence of its airspace “

bûllshit…. Basically if you are responsible for that, you have to have the equipment and personnel to carry out that role…. We don’t…the only EU country more backwards in terms of air defence is Luxembourg…

buried

At this stage you will have to make it some sort of corporate army. Nobody of what constitutes military fighting age is going to fight for the EU, nobody is going to sign up and fight for any modern western nation, let alone the EU. All semblance of what constitutes a sovereign nation in the west has been vilified, has been allowed to be vilified, especially here where you have recently heard Micheál Martin stating that he rejects a "backward-looking idea of sovereignty". So who is going to fight for this sovereign territory where even the politicians literally state this notion as being backward? The establishment can't have it both ways. This is not 1916 or 1939. Young people have no involvement or conception of a sovereign nation because they have been ushered away from any conception of it. Conscription won't work. A proper military has to have some vested interest in fighting for an idea of something. I dunno what ye lads here screaming for an eu army are going to do to get them signed up, maybe take away their tiktok video games?

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846718#Comment_121846718

So how much are you willing to spend on defense of the national territory then? Maybe increase the navy staff 6 fold, get 12 frigates, 12 costal patrol boats plus retain and up grade the current fleet for fishery protection. And from a practical point of view do you really think that would make any difference to an invader the size of Russia? You’d loose most of it in a single battle.

And how many F-35s would we need to cover a national territory that is actually about the size of Germany? 80, 100…. And even with a full air force infrastructure how long would they actually survive in battle? A couple of days perhaps if we are lucky.

And there is no point in even starting on ground forces….

This is the same debate we regularly have here in Switzerland and it always ends up in the same place - you’d need to spend maybe 20 of GDP on defense to be taken seriously! The only realistic approach to defense is a common EU approach. And if we get another round of Trump the speed of getting there may have to increase dramatically.

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121851039#Comment_121851039

Well, based on Gustave Gilberts interview with Goering and his often quoted passage you just denounce the tiktokers for their lack of patriotism. Human nature has not changed in thousands of years. It's why we appear to keep relearning the lessons learned several generations previously.

ted1

Defend ourselves from who? Britian and the Danes are the only ones who ever attacked us.

no matter how much money we pump

in, it won’t be enough. is it not better to

welcome an attacker in with open arms than have hundreds of thousands get killed ?

buried

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121851120#Comment_121851120

What are the numbers for these young people signing up for the actual defence forces?

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846787#Comment_121846787

Does it make a difference? Let them fly over.

Randycove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121850416#Comment_121850416

Because Russia is ran by a very very dangerous troll.

Manach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121851039#Comment_121851039

The points you made echo De Gaulle's from a half century back: that people only rally to the nation state and not to a corporate trans-national entity. Perhaps a bit self-serving of me to focus on history, but from that perspective we as a nation have forgotten much on how the tides of battle have had shaped Irish identity and that while we might wish to remain aloof based on a geographical isolation other political entities might have different plans. At the very least, a commitment to match the average European state spending on War related expenditure as well as making it easier to if not serve then to allow some form of voluntary miliary service (similar to the US national guard) which was provide a cadre of voters who understand the importance of the military.

Palmach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121849527#Comment_121849527

The usual immature attitude to defence. No one thinks we'd stop a full on invasion. The purpose of our military would be to stop our waters and airspace being used against the EU and NATO. It's not difficult to grasp.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121849133#Comment_121849133

How much do you think we should and would have to spend to adequately defend that infrastructure?

Will there be much left over from the couple of billion we are spending on the missile sites?

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121849557#Comment_121849557

You are entirely missing the point.

The batteries aren't stopping the invasion are they?

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12297

PATRIOT Ranges and Coverage Official PATRIOT ranges and coverages are not available. Reportedly, the PATRIOT’s phase-arrayed radar system has a range in excess of 150 kilometers (km) and the capacity to track up to 100 targets, providing missile guidance data for up to nine missiles. The flight ceiling for PATRIOT interceptors is about 20 km and PATRIOT can provide area coverage and defense for about 15 to 20 km for incoming ballistic missiles

So how many batteries is it you reckon we need to protect our coastline?

So much adolescent testosterone in a lot of these posts.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121849959#Comment_121849959

Again, who are they going to be fighting and what do you think we could do to stop anyone who would invade us?

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121850005#Comment_121850005

The only thing we are not, is under any threat of attack that we could ever hope to defend.

Can you name some countries that are both:

likely to try to attack/invade us

AND

we would have the ability to defend against?

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121850087#Comment_121850087

And what impact has that had? Are the puffins getting annoyed by the noise or something?

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121850766#Comment_121850766

It is intellectually arrogant to think you've figured it out, got the right of it + are seeing through "bullshit" and smoke blinding other people on this.

It seems incorrect on this topic because your view (do not spend more, do nothing differently) appears to be public consensus anyway (minus any conspiracy theory) and it is effectively the govt. policy at present. Changes have not happened yet, and are only being talked about as far as I can see.

Again all this stuff about Leo V [and FG], his Tory-ish views (esp. when he was a younger politician), his role as lightning rod + hate figure for those on left of Irish politics, and economic/immigration policies of the govt. has really nothing to do with the issue at hand IMO.

I am following you off on the tangent now...but in every country and every economic system there are some people getting "honey" undeservedly, and unfortunately life is not easy and never has been.

Ireland is not the hell hole that people here permanently furious with the govt. and its failures make it out to be, comparing both to its own sorry history and to other countries. I think a lot of these failures + Ireland clearly not meeting its potential come down to the way this country is run rather than lack of resources [that more defence spending might further divert or waste] now, bad systems and the mindset that people here have at every level.

We are a fairly democratic country, we get what we want and what we deserve as politicians.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121850934#Comment_121850934

"To join NATO would just put a target on our backs"

No need to join NATO for that. It's on our backs anyway due to our location between Europe and North America.

I'm not advocating we massively up our defense spending, but surely having an adequate monitoring capability shouldn't be beyond us. None of our naval ships have sonar I believe. How f**king embarrassing is that?

Potatoeman

Military’s are a complete waste of money, until you need them. Then you really need them.

old_aussie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846703#Comment_121846703

More than any other nation, the United States has provided unstinting friendship and support throughout Ireland's existence as a free and democratic state. The relationship between our two countries is based not just on common ancestral ties but, crucially, on shared human values.

Ireland and the USA are like sister countries.

Open boarders, illegal aliens running rampant.

I can see the similarities,

The police providing protection for the illegal aliens,

The police ignoring the citizens.

Citizens getting upset.

When are you going to grow a set???????????????