European Parliament Elections 2024 - Friday, June 7th

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122240790#Comment_122240790

The Electoral Commission of Ireland saw this as a problem last time out and sought to rectify it by producing an education drive on the matter.

Needless to say if similar numbers are repeated this time out, we will have similar calls for more voter education.

https://www.electoralcommission.ie/latest-news-and-research/lets-have-no-repeat-of-100000-spoilt-votes-in-junes-euro-amp-local-elections/

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122240813#Comment_122240813

"Sure it will be grand.."

I am now seeing why FF and FG got such a big vote. People are happy with the way things are.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122240911#Comment_122240911

You continually moan about the length of time it takes for the count. You want to fix a problem that only exists in your head. Most people aren't in the same rush as you, hency why pretty much everyone else isn't complaining about the length of time it takes! Our count system is quite careful yet allows for transparency and fairness - the use of tech would potentially remove some or all of this.
And it has nothing to do with who voted for FF or FG - again this is all in your head.

Now with my mod hat on: stop going on about this!

MacDanger

I really enjoy the whole suspense of the count and the way it comes to a head on the final seat where a few are in contention; I wouldn't like to see it changed

Every time an election comes around, there are people whinging about how long it takes (usually when there's a recount in the EU election rather than this early in the process though)

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122240862#Comment_122240862

X or a tick beside one name only is a valid vote, provided they do not mark any more boxes in any way.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122240929#Comment_122240929

Long conversation there on Claire Byrne about the ridiculously long time to count the European votes and that it could hurt Ireland's influence as the first meeting of the EPP is on Monday next. We could still be counting by then!

The people on the panel suggested we move to a PR list system for the European election or move to counting electronically.

I don't think it's a non issue as you make out.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122240947#Comment_122240947

X, 2, 3… is also allowed.

As is 1, 2, 3… and any empty boxes Xed - the Xs will not be considered to be 1s in this case.

But if there's any minor confusion the vote may be rejected by the returning officer, e.g. there's a single tick and a single X, or a single X and a single 1 on the paper (ignoring any other numbers)

Basically - unless you want to slow the first count down, don't use ticks or Xs needs to be drilled in to people

But far and away the main source of spoiled votes are completely blank, or have a line or an X through every single box. Or weren't perforated by the stamp of the presiding officer at the ballot box; which is not a voter caused issue.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122240929#Comment_122240929

Ah come on! I should have the right to reply here. It's not 'in my head', indeed that is a very disparaging comment to make.

Clearly, others have noted similar sentiments, sentiments that are going to grow and grow as the count goes on and on into next week.

And anyway, we have nothing else to talk about since we are waiting for these counts…. isn't that the point? Many people like these long counts as it drags out the process so that one can squeeze every single drop of election talk out of it.

twinytwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122240694#Comment_122240694

More to do with the Greens being basically irrelevant outside of Dublin and a few other affluent parts of the country.

Was it Martin, who claimed the greens were relevant in rural Ireland? She managed to keep a straight face with that one.

L1011

Second Dublin count, amount too small to make any impact, Eamon Murphy excluded

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122240990#Comment_122240990

With all these fringe candidates getting votes in the hundreds or low thousands, EU counts will be running into 20 counts id say

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122240999#Comment_122240999

Won't be anyone elected in Dublin til 10th (edit: I'm revising that to maybe 15th…) is my guess.

Andrews is 13k short and Doherty 14k short, the elimination now is 1,700 and the current (before further transfers in from other eliminations, but they will be the same papers) for the next likely eliminations are 2,000; 2,300; 2,500; 2,600; 3,200; 4,400 and 4,700.

Not a lot of those will go to Andrews or Doherty - mix of far left and far right in there.

emaherx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122240947#Comment_122240947

Not according to citizens information
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government-in-ireland/elections-and-referenda/voting/voting-in-a-local-election/

Which I accept maybe wrong and accept that a single X may be accepted as a clear singular choice.

However my point was it is usually fairly obvious what is a deliberately spoiled vote and what may have been a mistake.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241057#Comment_122241057

Citizens Information are wrong here. There's a 2015 Supreme Court judgement that makes it very clear that a single X is a valid 1.

emaherx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241060#Comment_122241060

And I acknowledged that possibility and it doesn't change the point

corkie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122240949#Comment_122240949

@hotmail.com as the first meeting of the EPP is on Monday next.

That is just the party/group meeting our 3/4 possible FG MEP's won't make much difference to that.

First important dates ahead are below, so no rush for counts,
and if they take till the end of month, so what? @markodaly

The first plenary session of the new legislative term will take place from 16 to 19 July in Strasbourg. https://elections.europa.eu/en/after-the-elections/

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241116#Comment_122241116

So next time when we have 40 candidates on the paper, you'd be happy with weeks and weeks of counting?

The ballot paper couldn't even fit on the table for people to vote on. The end candidates were disadvantaged. The prospect of randomising the candidates is now real.

Change is ok.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241167#Comment_122241167

So next time when we have 40 candidates on the paper, you'd be happy with weeks and weeks of counting?

• Theres no evidence to suggest that next time there will be 40 candidates.
• Theres no evidence to suggest it would increase the total count time to weeks and weeks. The majority of those additional candidates would receive very small numbers and counts will be quick (look at Dublin today, they'll rattle through counts)
• There's no issue with long counts. We have a very fair, transparent and democratic systems. A by product of that is long count times. It has little to no negative impact.

The ballot paper couldn't even fit on the table for people to vote on. The end candidates were disadvantaged. The prospect of randomising the candidates is now real.

That would be extremely annoying. My #1 was towards the end of the ballot paper. They were easy to find in alphabetical order. Is there any evidence to support the statement "the end candidates were disadvantaged"?

gral6

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122240777#Comment_122240777

hope, both of these clowns will be gone with the wind. Pretty sure, Putin will be able to offer them relocation to russia.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241186#Comment_122241186

There is no limit to the number of candidates in an election once they pay the deposit. How on earth could I provide evidence for 40 candidates running the next time. But if 27 candidates ran this time, it stands to reason that we could have dozens of candidates in further elections. It was statement that can't possibly come with evidence.

Again on your statement asking for evidence on the last candidates being disadvantaged. Common sense dictates that some voters just vote those closest at the top. I believe that those at the end of a very very long ballot paper would be disadvantaged.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122240972#Comment_122240972

No, I was referring to what is happening in Europe in fact - analysts reckon that the fall in Green Party support across different countries is linked to the rise in support for far right parties….most of these are climate change sceptics.

I don't think that is in play in Ireland at all.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122240949#Comment_122240949

It's in your head, don't you know..

Also it's in Claire Byrnes's head and the other RTE panellists… we have a full month, and we have loads of time…!

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241209#Comment_122241209

How on earth could I provide evidence for 40 candidates running the next time.

You made the statement that we would have 40 candidates next time. Not me. You didn't present it as a hypothetical. It doesn't stand to reason that there would be an (approximate) 50% increase in the number of candidates next time. That would be a monumental jump.

Nevertheless, the relationship between count time and the number of candidates isn't linear. The number of large parties and thus, the number of actual contenders doesn't necessarily grow. Redistributing 1000 votes is quick enough and 13 extra candidates wouldn't add "weeks" as you suggest. It might add a day which isn't problematic.

Common sense dictates that some voters just vote those closest at the top.

You made the statement that the prospect of randomizing candidates is real. The state electoral commission doesn't make changes based on gut instinct. They make it based on hard evidence. I asked a question effectively wondering if a study has been conducted in Ireland or internationally. I suspect there is and I suspect there is hard data to confirm or reject your instinct.

I don't agree that common sense dictates a statistically significant number of people just vote closest to the top. I think its far more likely people would vote in and around their first preference. I also think its a statistically irrelevant number. These are my opinions, not facts.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241186#Comment_122241186

Is there any evidence to support the statement "the end candidates were disadvantaged"?

Yes, there is. There is a mountain of evidence to prove that primacy at the top of the ballot paper helps candidates.

When you get a huge piece of paper that is longer than your arm, you are not going to go through all the names.

Those in the middle especially are more disadvantaged again.

There was a professor of politics on RTE last night talking about this, where she suggested the electoral commission start randomising the order so it's more fair (she said it's now a serious consideration), and guess what, this will make the count even longer again…

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241311#Comment_122241311

It'll also make tallying effectively impossible.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241294#Comment_122241294

I said there "could" be 40 candidates. Instead of asking for evidence you could have just made your point that you just made there without trying to be smart.

And the same goes for the second point. We disagree. I believe those at the end of a very long paper will be disadvantaged.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241317#Comment_122241317

I am guessing that is one of the reasons they have not implemented it thus far. But given that the field of MEPs has grown and grown, one would think they will have to look into it and implement something, especially since there is evidence that it leads to unfair outcomes.

The issue of course is that if you change that, it will affect other things like Tallying and the length of the count.

A bit like a Rubix cube.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241321#Comment_122241321

Being at the end of top of a long ballot paper is a benefit not a hindrance. Being in the middle is the worst for a crowded ballot.

However the reality is most people have an idea of their preferences before they enter the polling booth, and any impact of ballot ordering is minimal and unlikely to have any impact on the outcomes of an election.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241328#Comment_122241328

Not convinced that randomising the names helps all that much - There are definitely pros and cons to it.

Would agree though that they could do some work on the actual ballot design like moving to multiple columns etc. to allow you to see all of the candidates in one view and not have a 2 foot long sheet of paper.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241340#Comment_122241340

Randomising candidates isn't a big change I think and could be tried.