European Parliament Elections 2024 - Friday, June 7th

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122268828#Comment_122268828

If you can print something that size, you can scan something that size.

Without wasting too much of my time on this, here's a scanner readily available that takes 100 pages, and will scan up to 6096mm in length. That's 6 metres. Now, can we move on?

https://www.epson.ie/en_IE/products/scanners/business/workforce-ds-870/p/26624

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122268910#Comment_122268910

Using that scanner, it would take 7 days to scan the votes of the Midlands NW votes. That is one scanner, and 100% use. So 20 scanners might do it in one day.

Now the whole process would be made easier and quicker if the ballots were not folded at the polling station, and the boxes made so the the ballots were all stacked, face down. Perhaps a few more personnel at the polling station might save many being required at the count.

The whole project requires being well thought out by qualified engineers/designers. The scanning is the first step in electronic counting. The algorithms and software is a much more contentious part of the project.

It needs a lot of study.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122268966#Comment_122268966

I'd have thought the algorithms and software would be the easiest to arrange. A PM, Few desginers/architechs if needed. No more than a couple of weeks work.

I wouldn't let any ICT dept within a country mile of it.

Outsource the job and this isn't in anyway difficult to organise

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122268910#Comment_122268910

Did you look at it at all? The paper trays are A4 sized.

Yes, it can scan large documents but it can't stack them, on the way in or the way out.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122268978#Comment_122268978

Seriously?

We should outsource the future and stability of our democracy to the cheapest vendor who reckons they can do it in a couple of weeks? Tell me know you test election counts like this, and how long that would take?

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122268978#Comment_122268978

It is not the design of any aspect of such a project. It will be political and public acceptance that such a project is worth it.

It is persuading the ignorant but vocal opposers of anything - that it is a good project, that it is correct, that is not e-voting, that it will work quicker, etc., etc.

Social media will rubbish it, as will the IT and RTE - because that is what they do. Just look at the rapid slow installation of the Metro North Link over the past twenty years. And they are still rubbishing that project. Dublin rail projects have seen little movement in the last few decades, despite many projects that get designed and then stuck in ABP.

When will we learn?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122268905#Comment_122268905

It's not my proposal. I'm not asking anyone to do MY research. I'm asking those who keep saying that this is easy peasy to show us what machines can stack and scan documents of this size.

An Post envelope scanning machines are based in purpose built mail centres, factories effectively, built for a single purpose.

There is no difficulty in scanning any document. The difficulty lies in scanning hundreds of thousands of large documents within a tight schedule, using equipment that is only going to be used once every few years.

I caught the end of a discussion on RTE Claire Byrne just now with Fionnan Sheahan and Jennifer ???? where Claire asked about electronic counting. Fionnan noted the trust and transparency of the current system. Jennifer went on about how electronic counting is completely different from the electronic voting we spaffed €60 million on some years back. She then continued to talk about benefits that would only arise from electronic voting, and not electronic counting, including preventing voters from running their number sequence across two ballot papers. She seemed to be talking about machine readable ballots, which I can't see how they would be workable with a PR STV system.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269084#Comment_122269084

Spot on with everything you wrote.

Thankfully i don't work in the public sector(anymore)also. I'd pull my hair out.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269096#Comment_122269096

You have highlighted the basic problem with many aspects of Irish political life.

The first is the vast number of spoofers that appear on programmes like Claire Byrne's one, where no check is made of the reporters knowledge of the issue at hand. Now that does not apply to all - some are very well informed - particularly political and medical contributors.

However, when they demonstrate their ignorance it is not picked up because of the presenters ignorance, which is not surprising because it is not expected that they are experts in everything.

The main thing to understand is that the ignorant shout much louder in the hope shouting disguises their ignorance. It in fact amplifies it.

This is no better demonstrated than on social media. [Ooooops - this is social media!!!!]

wazzzledazzle

That's the issue. Nobody in the current political landscape would stick their neck on the lines to change current processes in the fear it goes ti!s up (and it will)

The shouty people as Sam mentioned have something to get shouty about.

The opposition will throw out soundbites like wasting money on this while there are waiting lists blah blah blah.

corkie

With all the fuss over TV Debates exclusions, based on this article they don't make a difference?

Cynthia Ní Mhurchú and Susan Doyle still polled well despite not appearing in the South debate!

Terry Prone: When all is said and done, TV debates won’t win you the votes
The general consensus is that television debates are about killer blows that shift the voting public

Similar story in the south: Cian Prendiville (Solidarity/People Before Profit) polled 6,243 first preferences and Susan Doyle (Social Democrats) polled 20,229. Neither featured in the Prime Time debate for their constituency.

More telling is the fact that Cynthia Ní Mhurchú (FF) who didn’t get to join in the debate polled 55,209 — she significantly out-polled Doyle, Bogue, and Prendiville together.

@AndrewJRenko Stop comparing home use device to possible industrial style devices. Newspapers are not printed on A4 machines for example.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122268828#Comment_122268828

Even so, feeding them by hand would be quicker than counting.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269373#Comment_122269373

Getting the votes from a paper ballot to a data file is trivial in comparison to handling 700,700 ballots over 20 or so counts, making sure the appropriate ballot moves in response to the appropriate preference.

It is not even clear that the 60 cm ballots can be mixed to give randomisation required for proper working of the STV voting system we use. I suspect that that aspect was ignored because of its impracticality.

Well, at least there were no full recounts in any of the constituencies.

StormForce13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269084#Comment_122269084

Learn that developing secure software and buying expensive scanners that will be used once or twice every five years (unless they become obsolete more rapidly) is "progress"?

Not for a very long time, hopefully.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269410#Comment_122269410

A lot of that cost would be offset by what they pay the counters currently. I'm led to believe the cost is around between 400 to 500 per person day (hard to get the actual figure)

Come GE time that cost is in the millions alone (Can't be arsed doing a rough calculation tbh, but i can't be far off the mark)

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269343#Comment_122269343

I'm not comparing to any particular devices. I'm pointing out the flaws with the particular devices that others have been suggesting.

I

But again, for the umpteenth time, can anyone point to any particular devices that will scan 76cm long ballot papers from a stacked pile, to a stacked tray?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269373#Comment_122269373

I'm not so sure - hundreds of thousands of papers, each taking maybe a minute each. And how many of them will the scanner read, and how many will need human intervention.

I'd really like to see a clear business case on any such proposal.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269407#Comment_122269407

I strongly suspect that NO aspect of the current count rules were ignored, given the huge scrutiny from participants on all sides, including experts in election law from the main parties.

Sam Russell

Quote: I strongly suspect that NO aspect of the current count rules were ignored, given the huge scrutiny from participants on all sides, including experts in election law from the main parties.

Normally, the TV shows the mixing of boxes after they are opened. I never saw any of that despite watching as much as I could. The counter personnel were shown smoothing and facing the ballots and piling them up, but not mixing. I do not blame them, and with nearly a million ballots, I doubt it mattered.

corkie

@AndrewJRenko

Why post this picture in post?

https://www.essvote.com/products/ds950/

I give you the point that format and types of ballots used may need to change to suit the devices used?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269556#Comment_122269556

He posted that picture as he keeps going on and on that it's impossible to scan a 75cm page, which is just a ludicrous observation. That was literally my first google on "Auto scrolling scanner".

It says it stacks 100pages, whether that's 75cm long or not, I don't know, as A: I don't really care, because this is a stupid argument and B: strangely enough, I don't own a scanner that costs nearly a grand. This business machine scans paper up to 6meters long, so I'm sure those in government procurement could easily find a scanner that could scan in all the ballots. The poster is just being difficult.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269872#Comment_122269872

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/controversial-dail-printer-project-cost-1-8m-report-finds-1.4097948

Probably cost more than the childrens hospital based on the governments track record

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269529#Comment_122269529

I've never seen anything more than a few seconds on TV of any individual count process, so coming to any conclusion about what did or didn't happen in a week long count process based on those few seconds would be quite foolish.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269556#Comment_122269556

I posted that picture, because someone suggested that scanner would be able to accommodate a pile of 76cm long ballot papers in the input and output trays, but it wouldn't accommodate papers of that size in the tray.

You seem to be getting into a whole different process, with actual machines for casting votes onto paper using machine readable markings or punched holes. That would be a huge change to our process, and I'm not sure that it would be workable for PR STV, given that it's generally used for US elections, where they are doing FPTP choices between a small number of candidates.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269439#Comment_122269439

From the last eVoting debacle, each of the 7,000 voting machines needed a dedicated operator to enable the machine for each voter, and disable the machine after each voter (which was the only way to register a spoilt vote). These 7,000 extra staff days exceeded or made a huge dent in the cost savings on counting.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122270200#Comment_122270200

Wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how you wouldn't need that sort of resource. Sure without giving it thought i could think of a solution.

corkie

@AndrewJRenko I post a link to a ballot scanning machine, not a voting machine.

Let the DS950 handle your absentee, early vote and Election Day ballot scanning and sorting, all without missing a beat. The purpose-built DS950’s advanced technology and engineering make the high-speed scanner and tabulator best-in-class — there’s nothing like it on the market! 

I then mentioned you may need to change the format and type of ballots to suit the machine. You where looking for examples of machine to do it. Like everyone else I'm not going to continue going around in circles discussing this topic with you.

Glencarraig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122259881#Comment_122259881

The scumbag isnt worth reporting on.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122270241#Comment_122270241

Just what we need to base the stability of our democracy on - zero thought solutions.

Fire ahead so, Einstein, tell us your solution to that resource issue?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122270331#Comment_122270331

Yes, I know it's a ballot scanning machine. But it requires voting machines to produce the ballots to be scanned, not hand-written ballots like hours. It won't scan PR STV handwritten ballots as used in elections in Ireland.

Unfortunately, we haven't gotten as far as going round in circles. We've just got very short one-step-forward two-steps-back so far.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122270561#Comment_122270561

Einstein? Seriously,how old are you…..

One quick thought would be all voters required to enter PPI(S) number , system identifies voter, couple of confirmations, instructions, on completion of voting you stupify it so much that even Mags who has never had a smart phone in her life can finish the task…..NEXT, and so on

You'll find problems, i'll find solutions.

corkie

absentee, early vote and possibly postal votes needing a voting machine! YA!

Software can be changed to suit the the types of scanning. Ballots could become just a ticking option instead of writing numbers. 1 to 27 (or what ever the number) under each candidate listed.

corkie

If the TV Debates didn't influence voters, than Social Media Ads may have had an effect?

Revealed: How much political parties and politicians spent on social media ads ahead of elections

• 
  Top individual social media spenders were Nina Carberry (FG) ~ €20,102, Cynthia Ní Mhurchú (FF) ~ €18,656 and Chris MacManus (SF) ~ €18,008. Regina Doherty ~ €17,185, Labour’s Aodhán Ó Ríordáin ~ €16,024.
• Roblox, TikTok trends and Father Ted: How did social media help candidates on the campaign trail?
• FG made a series of online gaffes in the run-up to polling day. This flew in the face of the image of a party led by the “TikTok Taoiseach”. ~ #TheTikTokseach
  

I am probably proven wrong when I typed this earlier in thread?

Sobeware of FaceBook contentaround the EU Elections, not that anyone is using that for political views I hope.

Also reports of increase in Online Media use over TV convergence for news. ~ Link

Also good to see the Irish Media reports on the EU Meetings happening today?

foolhardy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122237249#Comment_122237249

Thank God this didn't end up happening.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122270729#Comment_122270729

So you're proposing voting machines?

Because we want results in two days instead of five or six days?

There's no sensible business case to justify this, just as there was no business case for spaffing away €60 million, twenty years ago.

Why would we spend huge money and introduce huge risk into a stable process?

corkie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122271548#Comment_122271548

As I said going around in circles with you. Someone suggested a electronic counting machine instead and people have pointed out the means and ways to make that possible.

I have already stated that I was against e-voting both in 2002 and now. You also said that we would need machines to mark the ballots. I suggest an alternative option.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122259622#Comment_122259622