European Parliament Elections 2024 - Friday, June 7th

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122278388#Comment_122278388

Nope.

FTFP scales much better if you increase the numbers in the electorate.

That is why within hours (not days like us) a result can be declared, say in the UK or the US both nights.

It's simply impossible to do the same with PR-STV unless you use some sort of counting machines or devices.

But you just confirmed you dont know what scaling means.

And yes, politicans have also complained about the long counts.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122277661#Comment_122277661

Literally no one because she hasn't been reappointed yet

The Council will nominate her and the Parliament will have to ratify the Commission.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122278455#Comment_122278455

FTFP scales much better if you increase the numbers in the electorate.

But the count time increases? That was your point to prove PR-STV doesn't scale - the count time increases. You can't move the goalposts now.

If you increase the electorate, the count time is going to increase I would say for every normal system in the world. Of course FPTP is going to scale better but it will have a longer count time.

That is why within hours (not days like us) a result can be declared, say in the UK or the US both nights.

Now you're moving the goalposts.

And yes, politicans have also complained about the long counts.

No MEP has complained about the backroom dealings. Again, you're not addressing your own point. You've provided sfa evidence of an MEP complaining about that.

The whole point is that there is no meaningful consequence to the long count time.

corkie

@markodaly And I see you ignored my point about the backroom dealing happening in Brussels while we are counting bits of paper.

I seen mentions of that 'Urban Legend' of group formations talks before elections have finished counting. But see no proof or quotes from MEP's on it! Maybe you could link an example?

https://twitter.com/SeanKellyMEP/status/1803410838570635761

Edit 16:00 ~ No change to the EPP group leadership. And The EPP Group has just nominated Roberta Metsola as the candidate for the office of President of the European Parliament. [Not the commision]

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122278875#Comment_122278875

But the count time increases? That was your point to prove PR-STV doesn't scale - the count time increases. You can't move the goalposts now.

One is more linear, the other is more logarithmic.

Hence the scaling issue of PR-STV.

Of course FPTP is going to scale better 

LOL

The whole point is that there is no meaningful consequence to the long count time.

Apart from all the points already named and mentioned…

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122279048#Comment_122279048

One is more linear, the other is more logarithmic.

Hence the scaling issue of PR-STV.

Yeah but that's not what you said. You said a longer count time as the electorate increases proves it doesn't scale. It doesnt. That is true for all voting systems.

Its not logarithmic but thats besides the point, its nonlinear.

Apart from all the points already named and mentioned…


They're all your own points. Nowhere has an MEP actually come out and said "the slow count hindered me getting onto a committee". There's no actual meaningful consequence to us taking a few days. Its purely your own opinion with nothing to back it up.

See Corkies post. You've provided links to nothing or quotes of nobody to prove your point. Its just hearsay.

Podge_irl

Who cares if FPTP scales better, it's a godawful system and not even allowed for European elections.

corkie

I asked the above person "Any link's or quotes from MEP's on the above?" (Linking Sean Kelly tweet). I took the comment at face value when it was posted on 13th. He replied with: -

What are people's opinion on that website? There seems to be no search option on the site. And tried to see if there was archive clips of the site recently.

@markodaly

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122280101#Comment_122280101

The only articles on politico about "decisions" are relating to rumours about decisions from the Council. If he is going to make such a bold statement he should be backing it up a lot better than that.

CrabRevolution

If being elected 2 or 3 days after other MEPs is the main determinant of what roles our MEPs get in the European Parliament, it speaks worse of the European Parliament than of our voting system.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122280101#Comment_122280101

Numerous commentators and journalists alluded to the fact the the backroom deals, the wheeling and dealing was going on in the chambers of the EPP offices, while we were still counting forests of paper.

This is not a secret. Anyone who was watching the election coverage will have seen various segments alluding to this fact. And no, I am not going to give you the exact date or minutes these words were said.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122279229#Comment_122279229

Yeah but that's not what you said.

No, its exactly what I said.

You are dancing on a pinhead now to try and get your point across.

corkie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122280420#Comment_122280420

I too bought into that rhetoric, taking it at face value and assuming it to be true. Until people started questioning it on here. I also raised that with only now 4 MEP's in a 190 group that we wouldn't have much say anyway? Proved wrong with Sean Kelly chairing the meeting today. I'm not saying that talks don't take place and why assume our candidates wheren't included?

As of today there is 6 EU States that are still on provisional results. Spain and Portugal for example.

Chart from here!

As of today ECR is the third largest group beating Renew. Wonder where the 38 Newly elected Members, not allied to any of the political groups set up in the outgoing Parliament will choose to go?

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122280420#Comment_122280420

And no, I am not going to give you the exact date or minutes these words were said

Shocking.

And I was following the election coverage closely, not once did I see any serious political commentator or candidate even mention that it was important that their election be confirmed by the 10th instead of the 13th. Luke Flanagan has been in the Parliament for ten years already, he's pretty well-versed in the how the halls of Brussels work. His seat this time round wasn't confirmed until the 13th - has he or any of his team made any mention whatsoever of how he has been disadvantaged by this?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122280710#Comment_122280710

Check back the thread. It was mentioned at the time of the broadcast and not only by me.

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122280837#Comment_122280837

So a classic "do my research for me" line of argument

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122280425#Comment_122280425

im not dancing on anything, what you said was a larger electorate increases counting time for PR-STV and that proves it doesn't scale. Obviously ridiculous argument as every voting system experiences this.

Of course, there's an entirely valid argument you can make. You didn't make that tho.

But that all gets away from the point, i notice you've provided no proof of the backroom dealings and negative consequences of our longer counting time.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122281062#Comment_122281062

On counting: There is a point here. In an FPTP election each ballot paper is counted only once. It doesn't matter how many candidates there are; that doesn't affect counting time at all. It does matter how many ballot papers there are, but if, in a euro election you have (say) ten times as many ballot papers in a euro constituency as you would in a domestic constituency, you can still count them in the same time if you also have ten times as many counting staff. And you can have that if you want; the counting staff who would deal with ten national constituencies in a national election can deal with one euro constituency in a euro election — same number of voters, same number of counting staff, pretty much the same counting time. The bottom line is that, nationally, you're dealing with the same electorate in both elections. Turnout may be higher in one election than in the other; that will affect the number of ballots to be counted, and so the counting time. But otherwise all the relevant factors are pretty much the same.

Whereas with STV, many ballot papers have to be counted more than once. The more candidates there are, the greater the proportion of ballot papers that have to be counted more than once, and the greater the number of times each of them is likely to have to be counted.

This isn't an insoluble problem; there are several possible ways to address the problem, of which the technological approach — scanning the ballots and conducting the counts electronically — is only one, and not necessarily the most attractive one. And, remember, the problem you're trying to solve does not result from the number of ballots to be counted; it results from the number of candidates. So parsimonious solutions to that problem — i.e. solutions which have the minimum number of side effects and unintended effects — will look at that factor.

But the first question to be asked is: is it a problem at all? Myself, I'd like a lot more detail on that. As already pointed out, much of the wheeling and dealing we are being told abour could go on before the vote is held at all. Does it? If not, why not? If it goes on after the vote, but immediately after, are Irish MEPs the only ones excluded from it? What about other countries with only provisional results — do the provisionally successful candidates wheel and deal, only for the deals to be unpicked and repeated if that is necessitated by the actual valid result, when declared? Or are all those countries as disadvantaged as Ireland supposedly is? And what, exactly, is the disadvantage accruing? What is it that goes on between 3 and 5 days after the poll that doesn't go on either before that period or after it? I'd like to read in some detail about this from MEPs themselves, or from esablished and credible journalists who cover the EU institutions and know what they're talking about. Has Tony Connolly ever reported on this, for example, or anyone of that stature?

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122281309#Comment_122281309

i fully understand why FPTP is faster to count and scales more linearly compared to PR-STV, you'd want to be a lemon not too.

That wasn't the point made by the original poster tho. He made a different point.

Nor has the poster provided any evidence of the consequences of our longer count time.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122281062#Comment_122281062

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122281583#Comment_122281583

My point was simply that PR-STV doesn't scale when you increase the electorate and increase the ballot paper.

You seem to agree with this point but then disagree at the same time.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122282114#Comment_122282114

Your specific point was that count time increases with the electorate and this proves PR-STV doesn't scale. Count time increases with an increased electorate in every voting system. Hence, that simple metric doesn't work.

FPTP scales far more favorably than PR-STV. Your point was badly made. You've clarified what you meant afterwards.

Its all moot, you're entire point is based on the fact that there are negative consequences for a longer count time with regards backroom dealings. Where is this evidence? There are several posters looking for it and you're only reply is to tell people to go off and find it themselves. I have and can't see anything. It would be fair easier if you could back up your point with an actual complaint from an MEP or a reliable journalist etc.

At the moment, the consequences are a figment of your imagination and purely an opinion based on nothing but what you think and feel.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122282159#Comment_122282159

Sigh, you are still beating this dead horse.

You agree with @Peregrinus in how PR-STV doesn't scale, as each vote has to be counted numerous times, which was my very point and couple this with a long canidate list.

But you want to try and beat me down to agree with you, that PR-SRV is actualy fine, and scales just fine.

Put it this way.

Say you had a candiate list of 40 and an electorate of 5 mllion.

Which one will be counted quicker.

FPTP or PR-STV

FPTP would be done that night, while PR-STV could go on a number of weeks.

That is why PR-SRV doesnt scale.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122282183#Comment_122282183

When are you going to provide the evidence of the negative consequences?

Its all moot, you're entire point is based on the fact that there are negative consequences for a longer count time with regards backroom dealings. Where is this evidence? There are several posters looking for it and you're only reply is to tell people to go off and find it themselves. I have and can't see anything. It would be fair easier if you could back up your point with an actual complaint from an MEP or a reliable journalist etc.

At the moment, the consequences are a figment of your imagination and purely an opinion based on nothing but what you think and feel.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122282195#Comment_122282195

Dr. Therea Reidy was one person who mentioned the long count and long ballot paper.
https://www.rte.ie/player/series/elections-2024/10005579-00-0000?epguid=IH10005249-24-0001

Knock yourself out.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122282279#Comment_122282279

Where in the 1 hour and 43 minute broadcast is this said?

Nobody is disagreeing that there is a long count time and a long ballot paper. The disagreement is on the negative consequences. You've provided sweet **** all evidence to support that view. Please provide actual evidence instead of filling this thread with unfactual opinions.

Edit: i've skipped through this, Theresa Reidy speaks around 0:56 mark, 1:02 mark and 1:40 mark. I heard no mention of what you're claiming. None. Zero. Can you provide the specific quote or the timestamp?

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122282279#Comment_122282279

Loads of people have mentioned the long count and long ballot paper. Not one person on this discussion has said the count or ballot paper was short.

You have claimed that the long count has disadvantaged the Irish MEPs due to "wheeling and dealing". You have been asked over and over to provide evidence to support this claim, and you haven't done so

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122282330#Comment_122282330

Haha, you won't fool ol'Marko.

You managed to watch about 30 minutes of video, plus the ads (there are a lot of them) in the space of 5 minutes.

Lolzzz

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122282415#Comment_122282415

It was mentioned on the various broadcasts, and no I am not going to rewatch all the election broadcasts on RTE or VMTV to tell you the exact minutes this was discussed.

It was mentioned on this thread, but only by me. Have a look if you want.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122282434#Comment_122282434

No, of course I did not watch 30 minutes of video. She only speaks for about 3 minutes in total. She's wearing a bright pink top so she is pretty easy to pick out. UBlock means I don't have ads, I advise you install the browser extension as it makes life much easier.

Can you indicate where in the coverage she discusses the negative consequences? You're simply avoiding providing any evidence.

Edit: I've listened to everything she said on all three of those broadcasts. Nowhere does she talk about the negative consequences with regards to the long count time. I heard no reference to it at all by her.

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122282443#Comment_122282443

Grand so, you have nothing. "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence"