SEAI Fuel Cost Comparison posters at petrol stations

Calahonda52

Where is HVO in this cklusterfuck re implementation , bully boy treatment by SEAI

The alternative poster should show how much tax in the the stuff; below is ex vat

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913378#Comment_121913378

I doubt any filling station owner is going to exit the business because of this but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

I didn't know it was due to an EU Directives but the same applies there. EU Directives are not immune from criticism.

Businesses should not be forced to advertise the benefits of goods or services they don't supply.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913409#Comment_121913409

Literally the post above yours states that it's an EU directive.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913378/#Comment_121913378

crl84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913351#Comment_121913351

That's a completely separate argument again.

The filling station operates under multiple regulations, both domestic and EU, which this one is.

If you want to argue that businesses should be able to do whatever they like and not be subject to any rules or regulations, in some sort of ultra-neo liberal capitalist utopia, then feel free to start a thread somewhere else on that.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913420#Comment_121913420

There is absolutely nothing to stop them offering it to their customers (except their own limitations).

Anyhow, the article linked in the OP mentions that it is based on an EU directive and provides the details of including IIRC a link to it.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913420#Comment_121913420

They aren't being forced to advertise goods they don't supply.

They are being forced to comply with a regulation on display of indicative fuel prices in accordance with a policy decision to increase consumer knowledge on the cost of running of alternative fuels.

How many people do you think are able to easily compare charging an EV at 68c/kWh vs a hydrogen car at €9/kg or a diesel at €1.60/l?

I think the implementation here has holes (the home vs public DC mix) but the goal of providing information to consumers in an easily ignorable format isn't bad.

drunkmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913375#Comment_121913375

Sorry it was the Independent, "Green Party’s wrecking ball hellbent on destroying economic prosperity" https://archive.ph/rPQne#selection-4199.14-4199.84

crl84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913276#Comment_121913276

Wrong. Your first sentence is completely incorrect. The poster does not begin with a comparison of prices on the forecourt in question. Another Boards user that is incapable of reading what is right in front of them, and didn't bother reading the methodology used.

crl84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913420#Comment_121913420

EU directives are literally referenced on the poster, and multiple times in the supporting documentation..........

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913461#Comment_121913461

The Indo. OMG. I'm sorry I spent the time reading that incoherent rant. This is what passes for journalism now I suppose.

Just to take one of those rants. Spend on cycling infrastructure compared to countries with long established and mature cycling infrastructure while we're trying to catch up. FFS. Nonsense.

drunkmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913498#Comment_121913498

They're wrecking businesses and robbing us with electricity prices to justify their vanity projects.

Eamon rabbit'n on X right now about how we're doomed even quicker than he thought. They're one crazy cult with no regard for most people.

liamog

Mod Note: This thread is about the SEAI posters, not the politics of the green party or Eamon Ryan, politics forum is that way https://www.boards.ie/categories/politics-politics

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913431#Comment_121913431

No I don't think they should be able to do what they want and I'm not a supporter of ultra-neo liberal whatever.

I'm just commenting on an aspect of the SEAI plan which is salient to this thread.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913494#Comment_121913494

Ok sorry I missed that.

Clo-Clo

I see the usual are all over twitter with comparisons.

Seemingly someone had time to create a video in detail but couldn't then do the math to work out the electricity price if you don't use home charging.

Honestly from a SEAI point of view it's a bit of an own goal on this one. Why not give a comparison price for home charging and one for public charging? then none of this would be even news worthy

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913447#Comment_121913447

They literally are .

They don't sell overnight domestic charging which is what these posters are championing.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913438#Comment_121913438

How can they offer domestic overnight charging which is the only way the figures on the poster can be achieved ?

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913642#Comment_121913642

They also aren't likely selling petrol at the rates on the poster, it's not advertising.

It's an indicative comparative fuel cost designed to provide information to consumers, why do you believe consumers should not be informed?

mackerski

Well, businesses that sell tobacco products are required to undermine that business by warning people that those products can kill you. Just as a government can choose to discourage tobacco consumption, they can also try to discourage the burning of fossil fuels. Petrol stations used to sell smoky coal too, before that was knocked on the head.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913659#Comment_121913659

Petrol prices across the country are broadly similar, but there is no way to buy electricity at that location for a similar price.

Excusing bad advertising by saying it's an EU Directive isn't right either. In the Netherlands, their price is based on 60% Home, 10% Work, 20% Public, and 10% Highway, so obviously states have the capacity to interpret a directive to make it most applicable to their citizens.

It would have been perfectly possible to include "Home Charging", and "Public Charging".

https://allesoverwaterstof.nl/vergelijking-brandstofprijzen-europese-pilot/

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913695#Comment_121913695

I'm not excusing bad advertising as I do not believe a requirement to displaying regulatory required information is advertising at all. Same as I would not see information that Irish rail is required to display about punctuality on stations as advertising. The information compiled is designed to educate consumers, not to make them purchase something from the SEAI.

I do agree that the current format is a bit rubbish, I think the info sheet needs to show EV@home, EV@publicDc and EV@expectedMix. Increasing consumer awareness is a good thing in my book.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121912461#Comment_121912461

its still not a lie. And it’s based on comparable cars. T doubt think a Q3 is getting 5.5 litre/100km.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913766#Comment_121913766

Mandatory advertising then - if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

The current format is awful, very misleading and anti consumer. The majority of people will look at these for 10 seconds or less at a time, the information should be made very clear and upfront. The Dutch version posted earlier in thread is much clearer too, but the SEAI version is very poor.

I agree, EV should be split out based on several averaged usecases rather than a single optimistic usecases of 90:10.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913822#Comment_121913822

The Dutch version also doesn't show a split of home versus public charging. The only difference is it has more than one segment of car.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913656#Comment_121913656

I didn't say that a forecourt retailer can match prices offered by large electricity companies. I said that forecourts are free to offer charging points if they wish (and have space, planning, etc.

The poster is simply a way to show that if you were to choose a car, you could get one that requires you to stop at a petrol station and fill up at X price or you could do most of your "refuelling" at home at a much cheaper cost. It is to help change mindsets and I'm not quite sure why some people really cannot understand the fairly simple details of this!

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913831#Comment_121913831

It doesn't show the split, no, but my point in referencing it was that individual states have the ability to customise the information displayed, as the directive isn't so prescriptive as to say "90% + 10%".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913780#Comment_121913780

But it's misleading. Do you think a good strategy to wean people off soft-drinks would be to force restaurants to show water as costing 2c/liter*?

It's not fair on the customer, as they can't achieve that price in the moment that they're thirsty.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913860#Comment_121913860

But it's misleading. Do you think a good strategy to wean people off soft-drinks would be to force restaurants to show water as costing 2c/liter*?

It's not fair on the customer, as they can't achieve that price in the moment that they're thirsty.

It is designed to persuade the consumer to consider electric when they are changing car, not when they are putting petrol into their existing one.

Also your comparison to water isn't quite fair because you generally cannot go into a restaurant and drink whatever liquid that you brought in. People can choose what forecourt they buy their petrol or diesel from.

The biggest irony within your argument is that a litre of petrol is currently cheaper than a liter of water when bought in a forecourt!

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913860#Comment_121913860

The indicative mix should be based on the actual country mix of home charging, public charging, and DC charging. I think the 90%/10% split for Ireland is accurate. I also expect the Dutch mix is accurate based on

This mix consists of: 60% home charging, 27% public charging, 7% office charging and 7% highway charging

https://www.rvo.nl/onderwerpen/brandstofprijsvergelijking

We have a very different charging infrastructure in Ireland. The Netherlands have been very good at providing municipal charging services at a cost that is much closer to domestic rates. That puts the likely mix at around 87% low cost charging, 7% work charging and 7% high voltage DC on motorways. Not too dissimilar.

Public AC charging in Ireland has not been deployed in a way to seriously enable municipal charging.

drunkmonkey

It's not going to persuade anyone though that's the real problem. It's a waste of taxpayers money.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913929#Comment_121913929

What makes you so sure that it won't change mindsets?

How much money will this cost?

n.d.os

Listen, there's so much misinformation being spread on social media about EVs at the moment why not let this have its place? So many ICE owners don't even know you can charge a car from home so at least they can see this when they are filling up the car on a miserable March morning.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913929#Comment_121913929

How do you know that? I have met people who hadn't a clue how cheap it was to 'fuel' an EV.

denismc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913893#Comment_121913893

" It's designed to persuade the consumer to consider electric when they are changing car, not when they are putting petrol into their existing one.,"

Surely it would be better then to put these notices into dealer forecourts or sales brochures for new cars where they might have more effect.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914010#Comment_121914010

Probably because an individual doesn't visit a dealer as often as a filling station. You're not getting the same impact for your advertising buck.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914010#Comment_121914010

No. It is designed to change mindset before they get to a dealership. The buyer may not necessarily be buying new. Most people buying a car already have their purchase in mind when they visit a dealer anyhow.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913893#Comment_121913893

I don't disagree with the principle, just the location is all, as given it's on a forecourt, it certainly implies that it would be possible to charge your car for that price, at that location.

Well that's kinda the point - having a big poster up in a restaurant saying that water is cheaper than a soft drink, belies the fact that you cannot actually get it for the price at the location.

I think should be explicitly clear that it doesn't actually apply to that forecourt.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914131#Comment_121914131

I don't disagree with the principle, just the location is all, as given it's on a forecourt, it certainly implies that it would be possible to charge your car for that price, at that location.

You're looking at this from the wrong perspective. If you owned an EV you could have left home with a full charge and much less likely to need to stop at a forecourt: something you can't really do with an ICE car.

Well that's kinda the point - having a big poster up in a restaurant saying that water is cheaper than a soft drink, belies the fact that you cannot actually get it for the price at the location.

I think should be explicitly clear that it doesn't actually apply to that forecourt.

Your example failed to take into account that you can't bring a bottle of water to a restaurant. A restaurant has a captive market effectively. Someone driving an ICE car can roughly choose when and where to fill up based on convenience and price. Your comparison to this campaign isn't valid.

Anyhow, as for it being explicitly clear that it doesn't apply to the forecourt, are you still trying to make the claim that the rough price differential is not still applicable?

Clo-Clo

Every numptie that doesn't seem to know how to use a calculator is out doing maths online, my math teacher turning in his grave

Needless to say some of them are getting to extraordinary numbers.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914161#Comment_121914161

The price difference isn't applicable if you charge up at a fast charger. In general, of course it's true in reality for the majority of EV drivers, I have zero issue with that. Dealerships, car advert websites, radio, tv, posters - all fine by me.

I totally understand the savings: even just doing the first 15km (though the city) of my 200km commute on my PHEV battery made a huge dent to my overall fuel cost because the city driving was very inefficient on petrol. I'll be most likely buying an EV in the next few months (without a home charger I might add), so this isn't coming from and Anti-EV perspective at all, I just think it's misleading to advertise those prices potentially within sight of an expensive fast charger.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914220#Comment_121914220

It is not advertising prices - honestlly, why do some people struggle with this?

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914233#Comment_121914233

But the poster is titled "Fuel Price Comparison", and it shows an actual € value, right beside a pump, potentially within meters of a fast charger.

I know what they mean, but what are the general public expected to understand from that?

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914312#Comment_121914312

That’s a bit patronising.

What makes you think the general public won’t know what they mean?

Seth Brundle

I guess that they're meant to think that they could be saving money if they had an EV!

The logistics and specific costs of charging can be dealt with afterwards but it is daft to think that someone who must fill up on a forecourt would automatically need to charge up an EV there (rather than doing it at home). I presume your pending EV purchase won't be costed on you pulling into an petrol station every few days to use their fast chargers

drunkmonkey

Let's run with that line, "they could be saving money if they had an EV"

So I went to the seai website, picked the 1st 2 cars, an ID3 and a Golf diesel, which I think is a fair comparison.

The diesel is roughly €17,000 cheaper to buy initially. Yes your fuel is cheaper but even by their own comparison engine you still won't have saved money after 10yrs with the id3.

What's the new car buyer to think looking at that.

I showed no bias picking those 2 cars, I thought the Id would win hands down. Nope the smart money buys the diesel.

https://www.seai.ie/technologies/electric-vehicles/compare-and-calculate/comparison-results/?vehicle1=8164927&vehicle2=4210472

denismc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914509#Comment_121914509

Those prices are not accurate, I'm not sure where they got them from.

I'm pretty sure the entry level petrol Golf starts around 36k and the entry level ID3 is similar money.

I'm not sure where they got 50k for the ID3 Tech

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914509#Comment_121914509

Not according to vw.ie!

crisco10

Just out of interest, I used car scanner and my odb connector to see what my AC/DC charging split was for first 28k km in EV. As good as 5000Mwh at home, to 350Mwh at fast chargers

so roughly a 94 %home charging rate for me. Sample size 1

drunkmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914542#Comment_121914542

The seai poster isn't directing anyone to Volkswagen though, it's to their own website. I'd nearly call it an own goal already when there's misleading information on it right now.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914693#Comment_121914693

Not sure how you managed to do that, but I picked two cars of a similar price range and looks a lot different from what you came up with.

https://www.seai.ie/technologies/electric-vehicles/compare-and-calculate/comparison-results/?vehicle1=511766&vehicle2=4186523

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914317#Comment_121914317

I'm generally of the view that the public are smarter than the government give them credit for, but also that this poster is misleading in that it actually includes prices rather than direction to investigate more.

If it said "High petrol bill? EV's can be 80% cheaper to fuel than an ICE, since most drivers charge at home. See seai.ie to calculate your savings." that would let people do their own research. Or how about....

Petrol €10

Diesel €9

Fast Charger (€11)

Home Charger (90% of EV buyers charge at home) (€2)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914330#Comment_121914330

Of course they'd save money fueling it, but how much, and how then can achiever it is the question.

Actually it will - I rent and have no access to a home charger, but my commute is 230 miles (370km) per week, so relatively high petrol cost, but all in small chunks so no range anxiety, and I'll put up with one fast charger stop per week and have roughly the same fuel cost but with less maintenance and much nicer driving experience around the city.